Kiev Is Burning

[EchoFiveMike]

1 hour ago, JWB said:

I wasn't aware Churchill bombed Pearl Harbor.

Kindly show your map where Japan is in Europe.  S/F....Ken M

[RETAC21]

Just now, Murph said:

Israel is far far far less corrupt than the Ukraine, and really the only functioning democracy in the region, plus if we don't support them, Holocaust V2 will occur since the Arabs/Muslims just can't wait to slaughter jews.  That is why the US needs to back out of our World Police place and let someone else have the fun and games handling it.  

Hardly, Netanyahu was busy deconstructing Israeli democracy and they are the stronger country in the region by far and have been for over 40 years, except US conservatives don't want to see that because "Democrats hate Israel!"

At the same time, Ukraine is the only democracy in the region (Russia, Belorussia, former Soviet Union not EU anyone?) and therefore it needs to be thrown under the bus because "Biden!!"

So, yes, in this case you are writing out of your third point of contact because of US politics, driven by Trump, the man the Russians are more likely to have in their pocket.

[Murph]

3 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

With Bibi at the helm? The man make Trump look like an honest man.

Stuart, he is less offensive than Zelenskyy by a long stretch.  

[EchoFiveMike]

I've a great suggestion, makes everyone happy.  We repatriate all the Ukrainians, Russians and other eastern Eurotrash back to where ever they came from and send all the illegal aliens and other foreigners to Ukraine as conscript cannon fodder.  S/F.....Ken M

[Murph]

Just now, RETAC21 said:

Hardly, Netanyahu was busy deconstructing Israeli democracy and they are the stronger country in the region by far and have been for over 40 years, except US conservatives don't want to see that because "Democrats hate Israel!"

At the same time, Ukraine is the only democracy in the region (Russia, Belorussia, former Soviet Union not EU anyone?) and therefore it needs to be thrown under the bus because "Biden!!"

So, yes, in this case you are writing out of your third point of contact because of US politics, driven by Trump, the man the Russians are more likely to have in their pocket.

Trump in the Russians pocket, you are reading too much CNN/PMSDNC/the Guardian/and other leftist news sites.  Trump is less likely to be bought than any Democrat.  As for Ukraine being the only democracy in the region, who cares.  There are the Baltic states, Poland, etc.  Again, European squabbles should not be our problem.  Period.  But then again, when Putin turns off the gas, Europe surrenders, same old, same old.

[RETAC21]

3 minutes ago, Murph said:

Trump in the Russians pocket, you are reading too much CNN/PMSDNC/the Guardian/and other leftist news sites.  Trump is less likely to be bought than any Democrat.  As for Ukraine being the only democracy in the region, who cares.  There are the Baltic states, Poland, etc.  Again, European squabbles should not be our problem.  Period.  But then again, when Putin turns off the gas, Europe surrenders, same old, same old.

Yes, I guess it's the news that I don't watch that influence me... 🤪

As for this Europe surrendering thing, doesn't seem to have happened when Putin turned off the gas, same old, same old. This is the same Europe that stood to Hitler when the US didn't care about foreign wars? you know the guy that killed Jews by the million? just a European squabble, nothing to see there...

Anyway, what US isolationist seem to miss is that what screws the US is not "foreign wars" or "foreign commitments" but their lack of them.

Immigration crisis on the US border? surely it has nothing to do with the US disengaging from its Southern neighbors and leaving them in the hands of Communists and Narcos.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

8 minutes ago, Murph said:

Stuart, he is less offensive than Zelenskyy by a long stretch.  

To you. Remember this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:המחאה_נגד_ההפיכה_המשפטית,_קפלן_פינת_מנחם_בגין,_4_במרץ_2023.jpg

How many people have you seen protesting against Zelensky in Ukraine? None. But you advocate cutting ties to him, despite his having introduced reforms, but would defend Israel, despite, as any Israeli here will tell you, is headed by a narrow minded, self satisfied crook, that has the responsibility for the deaths of 1200 of his people on his hands.

I don't know where you get your news Murph, but I'd ask for my money back if I were you.

[Stuart Galbraith]

28 minutes ago, seahawk said:

For the Baltic states it is important that Russia is defeated, but are the Baltic states important for the USA? And the simple answer to this is "no".

Funny then, that for over 40 years the US never accepted them as part of the USSR.

[Stuart Galbraith]

14 minutes ago, EchoFiveMike said:

I've a great suggestion, makes everyone happy.  We repatriate all the Ukrainians, Russians and other eastern Eurotrash back to where ever they came from and send all the illegal aliens and other foreigners to Ukraine as conscript cannon fodder.  S/F.....Ken M

Does that include Thaddeus Kościuszko and Casimir Pulaski?

[EchoFiveMike]

Sure, let's dig them up and then we can do a rematch of the Revolution and the War of 1812, mod 2023.  S/F....Ken M  

[Josh]

46 minutes ago, seahawk said:

For the Baltic states it is important that Russia is defeated, but are the Baltic states important for the USA? And the simple answer to this is "no".

They are important in that they are NATO members, and leaving them undefended or otherwise not contesting their seizure could undo the entire alliance. I'll grant you that their membership in NATO was a mistake - logistically, it is just a bridge too far, and I think NATO should have not extended its flank to such an exposed position. But here we are now. Funding and equipping Ukraine is a simple, relatively inexpensive way to keep Russia from crossing its border in other places.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yeah, didn't think you would get it. Namely that Russia is trying to do to Ukraine, what we once did to you, and you utterly underestimate the foreign help, including Eastern European, without which you wouldn't have won at all.

A few short years later, France invoked the mutual defence treaty you signed with them, and you told them to fuck off because you signed it with a King, not fellow Republicans. And 200 years later you slag off the Europeans for taking you for a free ride.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

7 minutes ago, Josh said:

They are important in that they are NATO members, and leaving them undefended or otherwise not contesting their seizure could undo the entire alliance. I'll grant you that their membership in NATO was a mistake - logistically, it is just a bridge too far, and I think NATO should have not extended its flank to such an exposed position. But here we are now. Funding and equipping Ukraine is a simple, relatively inexpensive way to keep Russia from crossing its border in other places.

By that logic we shouldn't have asked West Germany to join, because it was similarly indefensible. So for that matter was Norway, which was similarly awkwardly placed.

That wasn't and isn't how the alliance works. The idea is less to defend Europe, than to make war less likely by increasing the consequences  for an aggressor. We can still do that. The problem is, we don't invest in the airpower and the TNW that makes that concept viable.

[ink]

1 hour ago, BansheeOne said:

It's the usual "a couple meters this way, a couple that way" it has been since the last major development at the Dnipro bridgeheads.

Thanks to everyone for their updates. Seems to me, Banshee nailed it with this succinct roundup though.

Probably from here on I'm, the major developments will be political, at least until the next campaigning season.

[Pavel Novak]

1 hour ago, Murph said:

And I cannot disagree with that since we were attacked by the Japanese.  If Hitler had not declared war, there would have been no interest in attacking Germany despite FDR desperately wanting to get into that war.  Also the US backed Japan into a corner in their mind with the embargo.  Churchill wrote that when Pearl Harbor happened he slept well since the US was now in the war.  

And if Japanese did not invade British and Netherlands asian territories both war (with Germany and with Japan) could stayed separated. Who knows.

54 minutes ago, EchoFiveMike said:

Who says we have to fight Russians in the Baltics later?  Trying to sell an assumption is the mark of a swindler.  S/F....Ken M  

I can understand reasoning USA problems first and I am perfectly fine with that.

Problem I have is that it is the USA which often force its morals to others then decide to declare victory and withdraws from created chaos. The USA too often gives hopes and than leaves. It is better not to give hope. See Ukraine it is the USA which had actual commitment to Ukrainian security unlike most of european countries due to Budapest memorandum - the USA did not have to be involved in that but the USA did that. So if Ukraine falls it would be US defeat - every enemy of the USA would see that as US defeat.

Btw. during 1990s the USA was pressing CZ, SK and BG to scrap their SS-23 missiles. Why? Due to some moral crusade? But once the USA started to be involved in this - esspecially forcing somebody to disarm please do not tell me that the USA are not involved. Let the others have whatever weapons they want and only than you can say you are not involved.

 

[futon]

4 hours ago, JWB said:

I wasn't aware Churchill bombed Pearl Harbor.

A+ 3rd grade level assessment.

[futon]

3 hours ago, Murph said:

And I cannot disagree with that since we were attacked by the Japanese.  If Hitler had not declared war, there would have been no interest in attacking Germany despite FDR desperately wanting to get into that war.  Also the US backed Japan into a corner in their mind with the embargo.  Churchill wrote that when Pearl Harbor happened he slept well since the US was now in the war.  

In quite a similar way how US support to GB developed and how GB efforts in seeking US developed, the same applies wity the US and CKS's Nationalists Chinese. There is no way that it could be argued that CKS's Nationalsist Chinese deserved the support at the expense of Great Britain. And on the flip side, there is no way for the sake of the human condition to argue that if choosing one or the other, it was Imperial Japan had to be destroyed more so than Nazi Germany. Additionally, the WW2 in Europe started in a black and white fashion. Not so in the Second Sino-Chinese War. 

[futon]

2 hours ago, EchoFiveMike said:

Kindly show your map where Japan is in Europe.  S/F....Ken M

There's a lot of places and people in China. All in Chinese names and in Chinese language characters. And of course all those dielects. I wonder how many Americans knew what those are when FDR started sending lines of credits to CKS's Nationalists and made the leave China demand.

[futon]

1 hour ago, Pavel Novak said:

And if Japanese did not invade British and Netherlands asian territories both war (with Germany and with Japan) could stayed separated. Who knows.

 

If the US was taking an isolationists posture, than it would be enough for the Japanese to capture the Dutch Indies without the PH attack. If GB was keeping priority on Germany, then did not create the Burma Road to supply CKS's Nationalists, then the Japanese likely would not attack British possessions. Heck, if GB recognized the puppet regime of Manchukuo and the Wang Regime, Japan may have been sending its navy to the aid of GB to the Mediterranean Sea again.  

[R011]

5 hours ago, Murph said:

We have been involved in too many wars that we should never have gotten involved in over the last 100+ years.  We have spent vast sums of money of Nato so that Europe can have a nice socialist standard of living.  What could that money have done for the US?  We fought in Vietnam when we should have learned from the French, Iraq, Afghanistan, 17 years too long, we should have done the classic British Empire "butcher and bolt".  To many wars we should never have fought.  Somewhere, and I cannot remember where I read it, Churchill was ecstatic over both WWI and WWII US involvement, and the British Maskirovka for leading the US into wars worked very very well.  FDR violated neutrality by sending lawyers, guns and money to the UK, since like most Democrats he saw a way for his donors to make money, plus he was increasingly unpopular and looked to maybe lose the 1940 election, so he lied.  FDR was renowned for his mendacity.

Ukraine is not our war, maybe it is a European war, then Europe needs to get off its collective posteriors and actually spend some of the wonderful socialist money defending themselves instead of wanting the US to provide 50+% as normal.  

The British didn't write the Zimmerman Telegram or trick the Germans into admitting it was genuine.  The British didn't cause the Axis Powers to announce they wanted to take over the world and then try to do it and, as noted, didn't bomb Pearl Harbor.  The British didn't invent Einsatzgruppen or invent Japanese war crimes.

And no, FDR was not at all close to losing the 1940 election and most of the people making money from arms sales to the Allies were Big Business Republicans who really disliked the Democrats pro-union, anti-business domestic agenda.

 

As for Churchill being happy, well yeah.   Why wouldn't he be?  He wasn't an idiot.

[R011]

3 hours ago, Murph said:

And you have FAR more experience with the Russians and their...proclivities than I ever will.  I just think the constant farking with Russia is stupid, contain them, and let Putin keep stealing.  Ukraine? I have to hold my nose and really really control my disgust since in my mind the Ukrainian government is no better than Putin's Russia.  I have no issue with Nato defending the Baltic states since the have been Russia's chew toy for a very long time.  Ukraine, the only reason we are doing anything for them is that they have paid the Bidens and Vindman very very well over the years.  

Wouldn't you rather have the Ukrainians dying to stop Russia there before Americans have to die to stop them in the Baltics or Poland?

And if Biden and Vindman are the only reasons the US is helping Ukraine, why are the others doing so too?  Why was Trump sending trainers and weapons to Ukraine?

[R011]

3 hours ago, Murph said:

And I cannot disagree with that since we were attacked by the Japanese.  If Hitler had not declared war, there would have been no interest in attacking Germany despite FDR desperately wanting to get into that war.  Also the US backed Japan into a corner in their mind with the embargo.  Churchill wrote that when Pearl Harbor happened he slept well since the US was now in the war.  

I'm pretty confident that Germany would have given the US a cassus belli within the year.  It was in their nature at the time.  And japan backed themselves into that corner with their brutal aggression in Asia and alliance with Hitler.

[futon]

11 minutes ago, R011 said:

The British didn't write the Zimmerman Telegram or trick the Germans into admitting it was genuine.  The British didn't cause the Axis Powers to announce they wanted to take over the world and then try to do it and, as noted, didn't bomb Pearl Harbor.  The British didn't invent Einsatzgruppen or invent Japanese war crimes.

 

Detailed analysis on other things but always the dumbdowned statements related to the PH attack. The results of war propaganda and post-war narrative's exercise of victor-writes-history is a sight to behold. 

[futon]

1 minute ago, R011 said:

I'm pretty confident that Germany would have given the US a cassus belli within the year.  It was in their nature at the time.  And japan backed themselves into that corner with their brutal aggression in Asia and alliance with Hitler.

CkS's Nationalists Chinese were begging Germany to not leave its partnership back in late 1937. Even simply better Naval Treaty terms and the US not doing the duel not-recognize-Manchukuo/Recognize SU alone may have been enough to keep some in Japan from finding Germany attractive and less negative view  on the US.. even by people like Tojo.

[R011]

3 hours ago, Murph said:

Stuart, he is less offensive than Zelenskyy by a long stretch.  

How so?  A sfar as I can tell, no substanbtive allegations of serious corruption have been made against him.  There have been some clumsy fraudulent attempts to smear him, like the yachts he supposedly bought that are still for sale with the documentation claiming he was buying them an obvious forgery.