Kiev Is Burning

[seahawk]

The actual news is happening in Washington, where the pro-Ukrainian regime leader is desperately begging for even more money, which the Republicans seem to have no intention of giving it to him. Can´t blame the guy, a fleet of yachts and mansions around the globe need money.

[MiGG0]

43 minutes ago, ink said:

Is there any news actually coming in from the war? Work has prevented me from keeping an eye on things, so I was just wondering if anything was happening.

Last I saw, the Russians were still attacking in the Avdiivka area, and there were announcements that attacks on the Ukrainian energy system were imminent.

Pretty much sitatuation is still same. RUS have advanced somewhat in different places and initiative is on their side at the moment, but nothing major has happened. Avdiivka seems to be new Bakhmut

[glenn239]

1 hour ago, ink said:

Is there any news actually coming in from the war? Work has prevented me from keeping an eye on things, so I was just wondering if anything was happening.

Increasing Russian offensive activity all along the front with signs of strain on Ukrainian frontline units and, by the way they are shifting units from sector to sector, indications of lack of reserves.  Some Ukrainian videos of successful FPV drone strikes and AT missile attacks, but those for artillery strikes and such seem to be getting rarer.  Daily briefs are showing Russian gains everywhere, but generally small, this field or that tree line type thing.   

Some videos lately of Ukrainian press gang tactics of forcefully rounding up new draftees to replace Ukrainian losses.  (In the one I just watched, a round up in a fitness club).  Indications of increasingly serious tensions inside the Ukrainian army and high command, (Zelensky). 

On the air war front, the Russians winter missile campaign against the Ukrainian power grid appears to have started, and reports that FAB strikes are touching the 100-per-day level, but with expectation that this might soon be much higher and with much heavier bombs - could they get to a thousand on a day?  

Overall, the trajectory is that the Ukrainian military position is deteriorating.  They appear to be running out of well trained troops, low on ammunition, and other than HIMARS and FPV strikes, the firepower war seems to be getting increasingly one-sided. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by glenn239

[futon]

Members of the 24th Mechanised Brigade named after King Danylo have regained control over a spoil tip within the settlement of Horlivka in Donetsk Oblast and raised the Ukrainian flag there.

...

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/12/12/7432721/index.amp

[Murph]

20 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

And they fought for months to not send those!

Rightly so, why are we sending anything to the Kleptocrats? Other than they keep paying off the Biden family.  Not our war.

[Roman Alymov]

8 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Right back at you Glenn. Have you ever stopped to reflect whether I might actually be right? Because, and I dont like blowing my own trumpet here, as far as thinking the worst of the Putin regime, Ive got a considerably higher rate of being right than you have over the past 9 years.

I said in 2018 after Salisbury, that a man capable of doing that, was capable of doing anything. Did you listen? No. Who was right?

Could you please give us your Putin and take our local one in exchange, please? It would be nice to have tough decision maker you describe replace weak comprador politician who is now openly admitting he was "led by his nose" for almost 10 years of begging the West to follow so called Minsk agreements we now know never were agreements - but just trick to better prepare war against Russia....

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, Murph said:

Rightly so, why are we sending anything to the Kleptocrats? Other than they keep paying off the Biden family.  Not our war.

WW1. Not our War. Lusitania gets sank. 'Oh my goodness, guess its our war!'

WW2. Not our War. Shipping sunk off the American west coast. Still not our war.  USS Reuben James gets sunk by Erich Topp. Well still not REALLY our war. Hitler declares war on America. 'Hell yeah its our war!'

WW3? It will be paved with your best intentions to remain stubbornly indifferent im sure. Why, even the Chinese are taking notes.

Im sorry Murph, I respect you as a person and a friend, but this cheese eating surrender monkey shit, I do no understand and frankly will never comprehend.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

11 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

Could you please give us your Putin and take our local one in exchange, please? It would be nice to have tough decision maker you describe replace weak comprador politician who is now openly admitting he was "led by his nose" for almost 10 years of begging the West to follow so called Minsk agreements we now know never were agreements - but just trick to better prepare war against Russia....

We will send you Boris Johnson, its about what you deserve.

[Murph]

45 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

WW1. Not our War. Lusitania gets sank. 'Oh my goodness, guess its our war!'

WW2. Not our War. Shipping sunk off the American west coast. Still not our war.  USS Reuben James gets sunk by Erich Topp. Well still not REALLY our war. Hitler declares war on America. 'Hell yeah its our war!'

WW3? It will be paved with your best intentions to remain stubbornly indifferent im sure. Why, even the Chinese are taking notes.

Im sorry Murph, I respect you as a person and a friend, but this cheese eating surrender monkey shit, I do no understand and frankly will never comprehend.

 

We have been involved in too many wars that we should never have gotten involved in over the last 100+ years.  We have spent vast sums of money of Nato so that Europe can have a nice socialist standard of living.  What could that money have done for the US?  We fought in Vietnam when we should have learned from the French, Iraq, Afghanistan, 17 years too long, we should have done the classic British Empire "butcher and bolt".  To many wars we should never have fought.  Somewhere, and I cannot remember where I read it, Churchill was ecstatic over both WWI and WWII US involvement, and the British Maskirovka for leading the US into wars worked very very well.  FDR violated neutrality by sending lawyers, guns and money to the UK, since like most Democrats he saw a way for his donors to make money, plus he was increasingly unpopular and looked to maybe lose the 1940 election, so he lied.  FDR was renowned for his mendacity.

Ukraine is not our war, maybe it is a European war, then Europe needs to get off its collective posteriors and actually spend some of the wonderful socialist money defending themselves instead of wanting the US to provide 50+% as normal.  

[Josh]

Arming Ukraine now is a cheap way to not have to directly fight Russians in the Baltics later.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Josh

[JWB]

36 minutes ago, Murph said:

British Maskirovka for leading the US into wars

I wasn't aware Churchill bombed Pearl Harbor.

[JWB]

Zelensky warns of guerrilla war as Ukraine aid stalls in Congress (msn.com)

Excerpt:

Quote

The U.S. intelligence community believes that Russia has lost about 87 percent of the forces and 63 percent of the tanks it had at the outset of the invasion in February 2022, said a person familiar with the assessment that was declassified at the request of Congress. 

 

[Josh]

39 minutes ago, JWB said:

I wasn't aware Churchill bombed Pearl Harbor.

 

[Murph]

1 hour ago, JWB said:

I wasn't aware Churchill bombed Pearl Harbor.

He did not and please do not be obtuse.  You know exactly what I was referring to in my post.

[Pavel Novak]

6 minutes ago, Murph said:

He did not and please do not be obtuse.  You know exactly what I was referring to in my post.

Point probably is that the USA could have done exactly nothing in regards to Germany but still end fighting in ww2.

[bd1]

On 12/11/2023 at 5:27 PM, Murph said:

But why do we need to cripple the Russian military?  They are no threat to Europe, they are no threat to the US, it is a war between kleptocracies, let them fight it out.  The Cold War is OVER!  It has been over for over 30 years, Nato is no longer useful since it was designed to defend against a Soviet threat.  Why in all that is sacred do we keep f**king with the Russians?  As for Ukraine, they bought Biden and Vindman, and they are getting their money's worth.  

why russia must be crippled?

at start of 2022 i wrote that i want russia to loose because i don´t ever want those cunts  back. all that still stands.

i spent my first 14 years in soviet union. i´ve been to russia twice, although that was 30 years back, the places i went to were the same 1690, 1990 and most likely will be the same at year 2390.

 

my son is now 12, one of his grandfathers was at that age already for years a slave labourer in siberia because his father was in german side , trying to stop these cunts from returning. dad lost a leg in courland pocket,  evacuated to germany, never saw his familiy again.  grandpa came back in 1957 amnesty, but .... well , spending years rafting logs with alcoholists crew on siberian rivers left marks on him. 

my son´s other grandpa spent that same night  of  deportations, march 1949  in his family home attic, next to some sort of quickly prepared hiding spot where his parents hoped he would not be noticed . his family was spared, although his 18-year old halfbrother got mobilised to ss, last heard of in winter 1945 in austria. 

my son´s  one grandmother lost her mother to war, and father died in early 1950´s. she was told that because of her heritage, she has no hope to have any education higher than highschool diploma .  

 

COS of Estonian Defence Forces estimated that in 5 years after the war end russia has restored most of it´s capabilities in one form or another (´´likely it´s a t55, but a t55 still needs  a Javelin missile to  kill it.´´) . and they are looking to prove their street cred. 

Estonia is a reservist army country  and due to my advanced age ☹️ i´m left in general pool, not to a dedicated unit anymore  , but my 2 younger brothers are in lists still and in 7 years my son will be in age to serve. 

 

and we very well remember what happens in ´russian way of war´, as in butcha.  was so in 1580, was so in 1710, was the same in 1940 &1944-49. other  countries have their own stories.   it´s possibly/probably not  meant to happen, but it usually happens with russian troops anyway. 

when i was in my national service 1996-97, my sergeant told us - ´i´m not here because of goverment, or parliament or something . i´m here because i don´t want my mother killed , my GF raped , my home burned and looted. ´´  that was 2 years after grozny 1994. 

murph, do you really don´t see how similar behaviour of russians was in 1994 and 2022? and will be in next war, wherever and whenever it will be....

 

sorry for a bit rambling post, just got back from work and besides that never had much writing skills...

 

 

 

 

[BansheeOne]

6 hours ago, ink said:

Is there any news actually coming in from the war? Work has prevented me from keeping an eye on things, so I was just wondering if anything was happening.

Last I saw, the Russians were still attacking in the Avdiivka area, and there were announcements that attacks on the Ukrainian energy system were imminent.

It's the usual "a couple meters this way, a couple that way" it has been since the last major development at the Dnipro bridgeheads.

[bd1]

oh and what would the russians want in baltics - harbours.

90% of russian crude oil etc. that goes on ships , goes through Baltic Sea. their own harbors silt up and need constant dredging and icebreaking in winter, making them more expensive to operate. both not an issue .with Ventspils for example

frankly, hopefully they can keep their harbors operational and we could just pull up the bridges. i know that it´s a bit silly and empty , but i really don´t want to have any contact with those fucks anymore and likely never again

 

edit - clarification

Edited December 12, 2023 by bd1

[Josh]

14 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

It's the usual "a couple meters this way, a couple that way" it has been since the last major development at the Dnipro bridgeheads.

It's a little generous to call the Dnipro landings a major event. In fact, there is has been little ground taken by either side all year; all that seems to change is who has the initiative. Bakhmut -> Robotyne -> Adiivka.

[Murph]

20 minutes ago, Pavel Novak said:

Point probably is that the USA could have done exactly nothing in regards to Germany but still end fighting in ww2.

And I cannot disagree with that since we were attacked by the Japanese.  If Hitler had not declared war, there would have been no interest in attacking Germany despite FDR desperately wanting to get into that war.  Also the US backed Japan into a corner in their mind with the embargo.  Churchill wrote that when Pearl Harbor happened he slept well since the US was now in the war.  

[BansheeOne]

2 minutes ago, Josh said:

It's a little generous to call the Dnipro landings a major event. In fact, there is has been little ground taken by either side all year; all that seems to change is who has the initiative. Bakhmut -> Robotyne -> Adiivka.

Admittedly, the Dnipro offensive being "major" just shows how minor most changes have been.

[Murph]

20 minutes ago, bd1 said:

why russia must be crippled?

at start of 2022 i wrote that i want russia to loose because i don´t ever want those cunts  back. all that still stands.

i spent my first 14 years in soviet union. i´ve been to russia twice, although that was 30 years back, the places i went to were the same 1690, 1990 and most likely will be the same at year 2390.

 

my son is now 12, one of his grandfathers was at that age already for years a slave labourer in siberia because his father was in german side , trying to stop these cunts from returning. dad lost a leg in courland pocket,  evacuated to germany, never saw his familiy again.  grandpa came back in 1957 amnesty, but .... well , spending years rafting logs with alcoholists crew on siberian rivers left marks on him. 

my son´s other grandpa spent that same night  of  deportations, march 1949  in his family home attic, next to some sort of quickly prepared hiding spot where his parents hoped he would not be noticed . his family was spared, although his 18-year old halfbrother got mobilised to ss, last heard of in winter 1945 in austria. 

my son´s  one grandmother lost her mother to war, and father died in early 1950´s. she was told that because of her heritage, she has no hope to have any education higher than highschool diploma .  

 

COS of Estonian Defence Forces estimated that in 5 years after the war end russia has restored most of it´s capabilities in one form or another (´´likely it´s a t55, but a t55 still needs  a Javelin missile to  kill it.´´) . and they are looking to prove their street cred. 

Estonia is a reservist army country  and due to my advanced age ☹️ i´m left in general pool, not to a dedicated unit anymore  , but my 2 younger brothers are in lists still and in 7 years my son will be in age to serve. 

 

and we very well remember what happens in ´russian way of war´, as in butcha.  was so in 1580, was so in 1710, was the same in 1940 &1944-49. other  countries have their own stories.   it´s possibly/probably not  meant to happen, but it usually happens with russian troops anyway. 

when i was in my national service 1996-97, my sergeant told us - ´i´m not here because of goverment, or parliament or something . i´m here because i don´t want my mother killed , my GF raped , my home burned and looted. ´´  that was 2 years after grozny 1994. 

murph, do you really don´t see how similar behaviour of russians was in 1994 and 2022? and will be in next war, wherever and whenever it will be....

 

sorry for a bit rambling post, just got back from work and besides that never had much writing skills...

 

 

 

 

And you have FAR more experience with the Russians and their...proclivities than I ever will.  I just think the constant farking with Russia is stupid, contain them, and let Putin keep stealing.  Ukraine? I have to hold my nose and really really control my disgust since in my mind the Ukrainian government is no better than Putin's Russia.  I have no issue with Nato defending the Baltic states since the have been Russia's chew toy for a very long time.  Ukraine, the only reason we are doing anything for them is that they have paid the Bidens and Vindman very very well over the years.  

[Mike1158]

3 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

We will send you Boris Johnson, its about what you deserve.

Make that Jeremy Corbyn.  Far more of a match.......

[Ssnake]

2 hours ago, Murph said:

We have been involved in too many wars that we should never have gotten involved in over the last 100+ years.  ...  We fought in Vietnam when we should have learned from the French, Iraq, Afghanistan, 17 years too long, ...  To many wars we should never have fought.  ...

Ukraine is not our war, maybe it is a European war, then Europe needs to get off its collective posteriors and actually spend some of the wonderful socialist money defending themselves instead of wanting the US to provide 50+% as normal.  

Regarding the first part,

a. Just because you got involved in the wrong wars, or in the wrong way in the past does not automatically invalidate the involvement in Ukraine

b. The whole point of supporting Ukraine is, someone else is fighting a war so American troops won't be needed in a conflict with Russia in a not too distant future

c. So far, it has cost the US next to nothing. You emptied warehouses with decrepit M113s, and artillery rounds nearing the end of their nominal shelf life. Yes, costs will go up once that production of new artillery munitions gets ramped up, but the difference between what would have been necessary in any case and what will be required to sustain the effort in Ukraine is still two orders of magnitude lower than, say, the Zumwalt debacle; the kind of blooper that the US military entertains us with on a more or less regular basis, and a single digit percentage of that waste which actually wouldn't be wasted at all it's going to diminish any US capability.

d. As far as actual money flow is concerned, Europe so far has paid about 75% of all aid to Ukraine. The US has donated more military aid, and the by far most useful contributions have been Starlink, intelligence, and artillery shells. Your return on investment is fantastic; a 50% reduction in Russian army hardware at no cost of American lives.

 

I don't think that concern over the well-being of the US is your true motive.

[seahawk]

6 minutes ago, Murph said:

And you have FAR more experience with the Russians and their...proclivities than I ever will.  I just think the constant farking with Russia is stupid, contain them, and let Putin keep stealing.  Ukraine? I have to hold my nose and really really control my disgust since in my mind the Ukrainian government is no better than Putin's Russia.  I have no issue with Nato defending the Baltic states since the have been Russia's chew toy for a very long time.  Ukraine, the only reason we are doing anything for them is that they have paid the Bidens and Vindman very very well over the years.  

For the Baltic states it is important that Russia is defeated, but are the Baltic states important for the USA? And the simple answer to this is "no".