Kiev Is Burning

[Roman Alymov]

11 minutes ago, ink said:

Your's and Pavel's attitude towards people who "don't respect" Western Civilization™️ is at odds (not to say diametrically opposed to) one/some of the main tenets of said civilization: principally the one about universal values.

Welcome to "rules based order"   Luckily, Untermensch our Slavic brothers from Eastern Central Europe are not good at art of doublethink and openly pronounce what is practiced (but not declared) by "real white men" whom they believe they are now part of

[Josh]

6 hours ago, mkenny said:

You would think but a film shows that the Ukrainians floated a barge over to test the reaction and whilst it was bracketed many time no hits were seen. 

They have been using early morning fog to obscure larger movements. I think they can support a moderate amount of leg infantry to act as a recon by fire and FPV deployment force but there’s no way they could support anything large or mechanized without pontoon bridges. 

[bojan]

4 hours ago, mkenny said:

6,000+ dead of which 2,000 were lost serving in The German Army. It was mentioned earlier but seems to have gone unremarked 

Danish national (I forgot his name) was one of the early and famous Yugoslav partisans "tankers" (he was first driver and  then commander of AB-41 armored car that he managed to defect with, later company commander of AEC armored car unit). He officially defected from Wehrmacht, through  that is shaky, it far more likely he was in SS. Survived a war, visited Yugoslavia after war multiple times.

Weird subnote to "Danes in WW2".

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by bojan

[ink]

14 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

Welcome to "rules based order"   Luckily, Untermensch our Slavic brothers from Eastern Central Europe are not good at art of doublethink and openly pronounce what is practiced (but not declared) by "real white men" whom they believe they are now part of

Your comment, if I understood it properly, is not far off the mark, imo. In the West, there is a broadly held belief that Western approaches to certain values (tolerance of others and other ways of thinking doing things) are the only way of doing things. There is widespread sneering directed at Asian or Eastern (Central) European ways of doing things - with no self-reflection about how intolerant said sneering is.

That said, the way the British and Germans (and to a lesser extent other Western countries) approached education about the dangers of fascism and how it comes about is - I believe - truly superior to how other countries have done it. Now, of course, they had their own self-interested reasons for taking that path and, even though I said it was superior, I don't think it was even close to being 100% effective. Also, much of that post-WWII work is slowly being undone now.

[Pavel Novak]

21 minutes ago, ink said:

Your's and Pavel's attitude towards people who "don't respect" Western Civilization™️ is at odds (not to say diametrically opposed to) one/some of the main tenets of said civilization: principally the one about universal values.

In other words, you're not supposed to disregard the humanity of others, whether they think like you or not. Thinking like that is also the first portion of the slippery road down to exclusivist ideologies such as fascism and Nazism.

But I understand, these views often crop up in Eastern Europe (haha, sorry, Central Europe) where two important historical processes did not happen:

1) these countries did not have vast international empires and have not had to try to come to terms with the legacy thereof;

2) these countries did not (unlike the real Euro-Atlantic nexus - i.e. the US and UK) try to differentiate themselves from the aforementioned exclusivist ideologies with a liberal aporoach that is built upon (often flawed but nonetheless valid) ideas about underatanding where fascism comes from to ensure it never happens again.

Don't worry, I'm not mocking you guys, Yugoslavia too suffered from much the same shortcomings. Under the communists, "death to fascism" really meant (and was universally understood as) death to fascists. No attempt was made to examine, understand and teach about the real things that led to fascism or why it was bad.

To cut a long story short:

Watch your thoughts, they become words. Watch your words, they become habits. Watch your habits, they become your character. Watch your character, it becomes your destiny.

Ok. That is actually very good reaction. I get it that if the value is taken as universal then refusing it to others even if they are against it is contradiction. May be "West" should not try to make its values that universal.

Problem I have here is that every civilization outside of that "western values" had no issue with killing us (by that "us" I mean small central european countries) when they had opportunity. Yet outside of west I hear nothing but scream of "victims" of how they were wronged by white guy.

I don't care about others and I will go against that universal western value in this. But at the end I will just give to outsiders ("victims") exactly what they want - to not be part of that values.

 

4 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

Welcome to "rules based order"   Luckily, Untermensch our Slavic brothers from Eastern Central Europe are not good at art of doublethink and openly pronounce what is practiced (but not declared) by "real white men" whom they believe they are now part of

You are in first line against that "rules based order" so I suppose you are fully for Denmark's decision not to adhere to that.

[urbanoid]

23 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

Welcome to "rules based order"   Luckily, Untermensch our Slavic brothers from Eastern Central Europe are not good at art of doublethink and openly pronounce what is practiced (but not declared) by "real white men" whom they believe they are now part of

I could engage in doublethink, but it would be a pain in the ass to do so. I believe that the West coddling the 'oppressed minorities' is an absolute idiocy. I give a fuck about functional peoples with whom I share some basic ideas about how the societies and the international order should work.

[urbanoid]

46 minutes ago, ink said:

Your's and Pavel's attitude towards people who "don't respect" Western Civilization™️ is at odds (not to say diametrically opposed to) one/some of the main tenets of said civilization: principally the one about universal values.

In other words, you're not supposed to disregard the humanity of others, whether they think like you or not. Thinking like that is also the first portion of the slippery road down to exclusivist ideologies such as fascism and Nazism.

But I understand, these views often crop up in Eastern Europe (haha, sorry, Central Europe) where two important historical processes did not happen:

1) these countries did not have vast international empires and have not had to try to come to terms with the legacy thereof;

2) these countries did not (unlike the real Euro-Atlantic nexus - i.e. the US and UK) try to differentiate themselves from the aforementioned exclusivist ideologies with a liberal aporoach that is built upon (often flawed but nonetheless valid) ideas about underatanding where fascism comes from to ensure it never happens again.

Don't worry, I'm not mocking you guys, Yugoslavia too suffered from much the same shortcomings. Under the communists, "death to fascism" really meant (and was universally understood as) death to fascists. No attempt was made to examine, understand and teach about the real things that led to fascism or why it was bad.

To cut a long story short:

Watch your thoughts, they become words. Watch your words, they become habits. Watch your habits, they become your character. Watch your character, it becomes your destiny.

Why, yes, it should be an exclusive club, couldn't care less about 'universalism'.

[Roman Alymov]

4 minutes ago, Pavel Novak said:

You are in first line against that "rules based order" so I suppose you are fully for Denmark's decision not to adhere to that.

Denmark's decisions and actions are up to Danmark, not me. What is up to me is to be part of public pressure to make RF Gov to act accordingly. 

[Strannik]

2 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

What is up to me is to be part of public pressure to make RF Gov to act accordingly. 

As in 1956 war casus belli?

[Stuart Galbraith]

2 hours ago, ink said:

If you're not willing to knock the French (in WWII), I'll happily do it... But that would require a different (and, possibly, lengthier) thread.

Anyway, as regards the Danes: it's tricky because the kind of historians who focus on intelligence services are often really keen to play up their impact. Meanwhile, the other kinds of historian, will usually ignore the role of intelligence services since it ia usually much harder to properly source and cite. In short, it largely depends on who you read.

They werent that bad. The free french were a spirited bunch of guys, Pierre Clostermans account makes that clear, though it is disappointing that he became a French politician and indulged in a fair bit of Brit bashing later on. Constrasting by how he praised Britain and all things British in the last chapter of 'The Big Show', its all really rather saddening.

Yes you have a point. The real problem here is it was, as far as Denmark, down to SOE, and most of the SOE files were absorbed by British Intelligence, whom famously dont release anything. That makes it remarkably difficult to write history about it, because the only sources are usually the resistance themselves (whom talk themselves up usually) or the SOE agents themselves (whom usually stuck by the creed of not saying anything). And of course there is Enigma decripts as well I guess. Ironic you can probably get more out of the Gestapo than MI6, but there we are...

That said, its been claimed 2 German Divisions that were in Denmark were significantly delayed leaving to go to the Normandy Bridgehead. I certainly doubt it was decisive, but it certainly was playing a part. And of course, the Germans up till about 1943 were occupying Denmark with virtually no resources expended doing it. When they changed over from that to a more aggressive stance, they were forced to occupy and run everything themselves, which in itself was playing a part in the war.

Looked at another way, if the Danish resistance was of absolutely no significance, then Operation Carthage makes absolutely no sense (or the Aarhus university raid for that matter), which Ive difficulty believing. Basil Embry would probably have knocked it on the head if he didnt believe in it.

Its usual to deprecate the role of resistance forces in WW2 (maybe there is some truth in that as far as the Dutch), but it could be highly significant, as we saw in Yugoslavia. I dont doubt that would have kept going without us, but we undoubtedly helped.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Stuart Galbraith

[Roman Alymov]

Lancet vs. M777 https://t.me/milinfolive/110907

[RETAC21]

18 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

Denmark's decisions and actions are up to Danmark, not me. What is up to me is to be part of public pressure to make RF Gov to act accordingly. 

by posting on tank-net???? 

[mandeb48]

a too much pro-Russian view of the state of the war in Ukraine.:

https://bigserge.substack.com/p/russo-ukrainian-war-the-reckoning?r=2hbis7&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

Edited November 17, 2023 by mandeb48

[mandeb48]

For debate: Finishing off seriously wounded people on the battlefield. A drone cannot provide aid nor intimate surrender but it can finish off. Is it a crime or is an injured person still a legitimate target? What do you think?:

 https://lostarmour.info/news/drone_23_11_16_01_rusich_army +18

Edited November 17, 2023 by mandeb48

[Stuart Galbraith]

14 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

by posting on tank-net???? 

He might have done better to have joined Prighozin's comedy cavalcade...

[BansheeOne]

58 minutes ago, ink said:

That said, the way the British and Germans (and to a lesser extent other Western countries) approached education about the dangers of fascism and how it comes about is - I believe - truly superior to how other countries have done it.

The West Germans, anyway. East Germany of course embarked on the "we're an all-new anti-fascist state, no historical responsibility here" approach. In the course, they preserved pre-liberal Western democracy attitudes, and/or sucked up Eastern European culture via the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet big brothers - the tendency towards authoritarianism, the casual racism, etc.

For which they indeed keep getting some broad-brushing condescension from Westerners today, but by and large are still profiting from Western tolerance; if they'd get treated like some of them proclaim people who don't "respect" alleged superiority should be, they'd find themselves out of a lot of moral and material largesse. Reluctance of true liberal Western culture to enforce itself really heavy-handedly is fortunate for various Eastern European EU governments, too.

[ink]

3 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

The West Germans, anyway. East Germany of course embarked on the "we're an all-new anti-fascist state, no historical responsibility here" approach.

Yes indeed, I duly stand corrected.

[ink]

1 hour ago, urbanoid said:

Why, yes, it should be an exclusive club, couldn't care less about 'universalism'.

But... Well... it could certainly be argued that by thinking and saying it should be exclusive, you intrinsically become someone who doesn't belong to the club.

In other words, one doesn't become a Western liberal thanks to the country they were born in, the language they speak, or the colour of their skin. One has to buy into the ideas.

Ok, so why not drop the "liberal" bit? ...you'll probably ask. Well, because the whole thing about Western civilization (or at least how it sees/reproduces itself) is fundamentally rooted in liberalism. Those who seek to change it risk destroying the very thing they want to protect/be part of.

[Roman Alymov]

 Leopard 2A6 driving under cover of fog somewhere near Avdeevka https://t.me/milinfolive/110908

[Roman Alymov]

1 hour ago, RETAC21 said:

by posting on tank-net???? 

Do you really believe posting on This Great Forum is my main activity in life?

 

[Ssnake]

The debate about complete rigidity of universalism of Western Civilization is an idiotic intellectual wank fest. Everybody deserves respect and decent treatment, up until the point where you can see that the whole thing isn't reciprocal. I'm all for being nice - and for not being a moronic idiot who can be taken advantage of at the same time. I don't think that's a contradiction.

What it lacks in philosophical consistency it makes more than up for in practicality.

There is no axiomatic system that is free of contradiction. Kurt Gödel, infinitely smarter than me, proved that more than 100 years ago. Kurt Gödel also died of starvation because he thought someone might poison his food. He'd been better off taking his chances, balancing the certainty of death when not eating against the remote possibility that his food might not be poisoned after all.

[sunday]

3 hours ago, urbanoid said:

euro-atlantic civilization

Screw the Romans and the Greeks!

[ink]

9 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

The debate about complete rigidity of universalism of Western Civilization is an idiotic intellectual wank fest. Everybody deserves respect and decent treatment, up until the point where you can see that the whole thing isn't reciprocal.

 

That's all fine and well but the danger you run is that you might start assuming it isn't reciprocal on behalf of, say, a whole group of people... Who you might start characterising not by the fact that they don't reciprocate your respect but by the colour of their skin or language or some other characteristic. Then you could easily fall into the trap of making other assumptions about said group that help you explain why they don't reciprocate your respect... Well, you see where this is going, don't you?

It's a slippery slope is all I'm saying.

Of course, you might be enlightened enough not to fall into that trap... But you're still relying on others (the media, maybe) to tell you who does and doesn't reciprocate your respect. Or, with such a worldview, you might be more tolerant or even supporrive of others who have fallen into the trap and are further along the slippery slope than you are.

It's a minefield out there, chaps.

[urbanoid]

1 hour ago, sunday said:

Screw the Romans and the Greeks!

Of course not, they are the contributors to what we know as Western civ, so is christianity.

[sunday]

20 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Of course not, they are the contributors among the founders to what we know as Western civ, so is christianity.

Little fix 🙂