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Kiev Is Burning


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5 minutes ago, Perun said:

Has all Ukrainian forces in Mariupol surendered?

I've read elements of Azov entrenched themselves in the steelworks, bringing with them civilians for the purpose of serving as human shields.

Of course, as the Ukries are the ones doing so, that is no war crime in any way...

Edited by sunday
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1 hour ago, Roman Alymov said:

Bucha is result of trigger-happy Volkssturm and National Guard "clean up operation" following Russian forces withdrawl.

...

Russia's third largest city

When you see how Ruzzian police treat the arrested protesters. Then you think you've been transported back to the year 1937. The Russian people make laws that look reasonable. But then the people believe that 'lawbreakers' (unpatriotic people, dissenters) have no rights and the laws don't apply to you. And so the administration, the police, the secret service treat the people who come into their power as having no rights, as lepers.
When you read how the Ruzzian media describes the Ukrainians as mostly fascists who are scum and who should be eliminated. Then it is clear that the Russian soldiers will open the floodgates to kill anyone who is declared a fascist by Russian soldiers.

The Russians are afraid to come to terms with their history. Because there are frightening parallels between Soviet communism and fascism. The war is a result of this fear of one's own history. Russia can force partners 'to love' only with "Army and Navy". That's so sad. Roman, I feel sorry for you Russians.

Edited by Stefan Kotsch
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9 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I wont change any minds, I havent changed any minds, Ive spent 8 years trying to stop this site being bent all out of shape, and for what? Really, if people still think there is something left to debate after seeing whole families slaughered, 3 year old children raped, women raped and dumped and burned by the side of the road, and still try and project there is some kind of equality between both sides, I really have very little left to say.

 

The problem is that in war there always is some equality in criminal behaviour between both sides. And we should have learned by now, that being just a little less bad than the worst party, does not make you good.

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5 minutes ago, Perun said:

Has all Ukrainian forces in Mariupol surendered?

No, it is only small part of estimated 7000 of Azov, Army, Marines, SBU, Police SF etc. still fighting (initial number was about 14000, but half are allredy KIA, captured or fled).

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2 minutes ago, seahawk said:

The problem is that in war there always is some equality in criminal behaviour between both sides.

But here the Russians are the aggressors. The Russians came to Ukraine to kill Ukrainians.

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"No, it is only small part of estimated 7000 of Azov, Army, Marines, SBU, Police SF etc. still fighting (initial number was about 14000, but half are allredy KIA, captured or fled)."

 

Ok, thanks. I just read one source which claims that ceasefire was announced for 10:30 today

Edited by Perun
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4 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

When you see how Ruzzian police treat the arrested protesters. (...)

 

Yeah, sure.

Have you seen the footage of the anti-confinement protests in France, Australia or Canada?

Or some of the footage of the January 6th protest, the one where an unarmed female veteran was killed in cold blood?

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10 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

But here the Russians are the aggressors.

That is pretty equivalent to say, within Western tropes, that the US Cavalry detachment that goes to the rescue of the family in the small ranch sieged by Indians are the aggressors.

Edited by sunday
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3 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

When you see how Ruzzian police treat the arrested protesters.

Have you seen how Western police treat protestors? I could safely say that Russian police is WAY softer (not because they are so kind people - but mostly because in Russia protests are mostly small in number and there is no need to crush them with vehicles, watercanons and rubber bullets, and police/protestors ration is enough to each arrested to be carried if needed by 5 policemen).  Or, have you seen how pro-Ukrainians (not even Police, but Army who in theory got no right to arrest own citizens at all) treat people they suspect of not respecting them?  Here is fresh video for you, and note it is Dnepropetrovsk, far away from active combat zone

https://t.me/faceofwar/18126

 

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1 hour ago, Roman Alymov said:

Rus TOR commander: 20 missile launched, 11 UAVs hit, 7 of them Byractar

 

Did he say anything about those shrapnel hits?

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1 hour ago, Roman Alymov said:

See above, Bucha is result of trigger-happy Volkssturm and National Guard "clean up operation" following Russian forces withdrawl.

So, like I asked before: Is this the official story of the Russian government about the Bucha massacre?

I just want to make sure, for the record, what you guys are claiming in case you later change your version a dozen times.

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11 minutes ago, Perun said:

 

"No, it is only small part of estimated 7000 of Azov, Army, Marines, SBU, Police SF etc. still fighting (initial number was about 14000, but half are allredy KIA, captured or fled)."

 

Ok, thanks. I just read one source which claims that ceasefire was announced for 10:30 today

Not exactly ceasefire but green corridor from Mariupol to Berdyansk to allow foreigners (mostly Turkish citizens) to leave the area.  Situation is especially difficult for foreigners as they, unlike locals, are not always able to find the way out.

P.S. On April 4, from 06:00, Russia reopened humanitarian corridor to rescue foreign citizens and civilians from Mariupol. At the same time, the Russian side is ready to ensure the entry of ships into the port of Berdyansk for evacuation of foreign citizens.

Edited by Roman Alymov
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2 minutes ago, Yama said:

Did he say anything about those shrapnel hits?

No, and as for me it is not shrapnel hits but result of collision or driving offroad through woods etc.

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7 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

But here the Russians are the aggressors. The Russians came to Ukraine to kill Ukrainians.

The defender can also commit criminal acts.

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6 minutes ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

I just want to make sure, for the record, what you guys are claiming in case you later change your version a dozen times.

You know that their stories will change over time. They know it. We know that they know. They know that we know that they are lying. And they still keep lying.

It's been like this under the Mongols, unter the tsars, under the communists. The Russian culture as a whole has developed a tactical relationship to "truth", and tries to export it into the world as a "post-factual era".

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Oh, Mr. Safe and Effective, the one that is not aware of the disclosure of Pfizer documents, nor knows what an infection rate is, and famous by his polite, elegant debating techniques totally devoid of personal attacks is now a paragon of good forum etiquette?

Still waiting for the report of the joint international investigation commission on the Bucha massacre, by the way.

Edited by sunday
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5 minutes ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

So, like I asked before: Is this the official story of the Russian government about the Bucha massacre?

I just want to make sure, for the record, what you guys are claiming in case you later change your version a dozen times.

Nah, they will continue to release new 'official' story every few days. At least they should bother to sit down and come up with something remotely plausible - such as that the civilians died in Ukrainian artillery bombardments. Since Ukrainians themselves have posted videos of massed Grad firings at the Kiev front, that should really be an obvious explanation.

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12 minutes ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

So, like I asked before: Is this the official story of the Russian government about the Bucha massacre?

I just want to make sure, for the record, what you guys are claiming in case you later change your version a dozen times.

You mean changes like British media and press over Skripals magic? Here is the official statement

 Russian Defence Ministry denied accusations (https://t.me/mod_russia_en/656) by the Kiev regime of the alleged killing of civilians in Bucha, Kiev Region. Evidence of crimes in Bucha appeared only on the fourth day after the Security Service of Ukraine and representatives of Ukrainian media arrived in the town. All Russian units completely withdrew from Bucha on March 30, and "not a single local resident was injured" during the time when Bucha was under the control of Russian troops.

Edited by Roman Alymov
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16 minutes ago, Huba said:

That.

Those pro-Putinist, genocidal talking points are being repeated here non-stop, and this cannot go unchallenged. It is not about convincing anybody, it is about showing that we don't agree.

I didn't say that one shouldn't argue against those talking points and mark your opposition, just that it should still be done in a civil manner. If we can't do that, then this thread will rapidly devolve into a shit slinging match, and that’s in nobody’s interest. Yes, I understand the frustration and anger. I really do, but we shouldn't let those emotions overrule all reason. Wars are fought on the battlefield, but also through hearts and minds.

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4 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

You know that their stories will change over time. They know it. We know that they know. They know that we know that they are lying. And they still keep lying.

I'd just like to read it from him. The Russians have a way of spamming so many bullshit stories over so little time that further down the line, nobody knows what their actual position was any longer.

Like Roman did earlier with the MH17 shootdown, where he dismissed the fake satellite imagery as the action of overeager TV journalists.

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2 minutes ago, Laser Shark said:

I didn't say that one shouldn't argue against those talking points and mark your opposition, just that it should still be done in a civil manner. If we can't do that, then this thread will rapidly devolve into a shit slinging match, and that’s in nobody’s interest. Yes, I understand the frustration and anger. I really do, but we shouldn't let those emotions overrule all reason. Wars are fought on the battlefield, but also through hearts and minds.

Only genocidal actions I've seen on video are directed against Russians or alleged Russian collaborators.

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1 minute ago, Yama said:

they should bother to sit down and come up with something remotely plausible

That's not how they think. You don't win a majority of the world opinion with one plausible lie that you stick to. You try denying the rest of the world to  form an opinion by burying the undeniable and indefensible truth under a giant heap of bullshit stories, each of which is easily debunked, but then you can engage those counter-arguments with even more bullshit. It's a manure avalanche. Stuart tried it, and was buried under it (even if he admidably tried to stay afloat on the moving mass).

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12 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

I could safely say that Russian police is WAY softer ..

Interrogation of demonstrators against the war in Ruzzia:

Life from the interrogations the voice of the cops (or KGB officers).

How should we communicate with you? Polite, cultivated, fast and professional? Or shall we write Article 51? Then there's slaps, we splash dirty water in your face, we stub out cigarette butts on you. And we have a very long conversation.' [Article 51 of the Russian Constitution (!) includes the right to remain silent]
...

There is no law here. Except my law.
...

Look at your breasts, your udder hangs! look at you dammit monkey, what the hell.
...

and so on.

 

Source 1 -> Contain the sound recordings that were secretly recorded.

Source 2 -> Contain the sound recordings that were secretly recorded.

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