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I don't think it's police they are fighting - according to MoI, 60 gunmen had captured the police HQ. After intervention by military and National Guard, they were driven from it. 20 gunmen dead, 4 captured, at least two on the government side killed.

 

According to some reports, yesterday Mariupol police declined order to act against local pro-russians, but barricaded in local police HQ building. Today National Guard surrounded it by BMPs and started firing – resulting in fire destroying the building.

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1) Got any proof of that?

 

See your video from Russian March 2013 - main demands of this nationalists was to stop oppressing them (abolish anti-hate laws and free "political prisoners"). This "political prisoners" were not Pussi Riot and Khodorkovsky, as you probably guess. Also note how careful they are in selecting words to avoid crossing the line (not even dreaming of nazi symbols and slogans). Is it enough proof for you?

 

 

2) So you are saying that the ordinary citizens of Moscow are fascists and racists?

 

About ordinary citizens - they are definitely not racists, not because they are so much civilized but because there is no other races present to excursive racism on (well, except Mongoloids but for historical reasons they are commonly considered "our people" to great extent) . Caucasus people and most of Central Asians are of the same race as we Russians are. So racism of even devoted Russian racists is very much theoretical -as well as theoretical was Soviet official anti-racism. Probably you remember old Soviet-time joke "I hate only two thing: racism and blacks". Even now i think less than 10% of Russians have EVER talked personally to the person of another race. But having said that, nothing like race segregating was present in Imperial Russia and Soviet Union. Fascists? I think not, there is nothing like organized fascism among ordinary people.

But there is great deal of what i think xenophobia is right word to describe. Rooted deeply in history. Do not know is it more xenophobia among ordinary Russians then among other nations, but it is definitely here. And combined with general disbelieve in "rule of law" and law reinforcement, it often result in crowds trying to take justice in own hands.

By the way typical Ukrainian argument about "Why Ukrainians are better than Russians" is "Ukrainians are of a pure Slavic blood, and Russians are the mix with Ugro-Finn (another version - mix with Mongols\Tatars)". I believe it is institutionalized racism.

 

 

BS. Here are your "fascists" (who are supposedly in jail) beating up migrants from central asia while yelling "white power" in English last October:

http://youtu.be/rx43dy8T4Ik

 

"Regular" people against the muslims:

 

You know very well that Russians are very racist - most common Russian slang for people from Caucasus are "black asses" which is used by ordinary people. A white girl with a non-white looking man will at best draw stares, and very likely negative comments about how she is a prostitute and so on (and I know that from a friend of mine who recently visited Moscow with her Puertorican boyfriend). So much for tolerant Russians...

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Civilian conversion.

Reminds me of those Israeli m113 doghouse conversions :) Probably designed with about the same goals in mind, too.

 

 

 

1) Got any proof of that?

 

See your video from Russian March 2013 - main demands of this nationalists was to stop oppressing them (abolish anti-hate laws and free "political prisoners"). This "political prisoners" were not Pussi Riot and Khodorkovsky, as you probably guess. Also note how careful they are in selecting words to avoid crossing the line (not even dreaming of nazi symbols and slogans). Is it enough proof for you?

 

 

2) So you are saying that the ordinary citizens of Moscow are fascists and racists?

 

About ordinary citizens - they are definitely not racists, not because they are so much civilized but because there is no other races present to excursive racism on (well, except Mongoloids but for historical reasons they are commonly considered "our people" to great extent) . Caucasus people and most of Central Asians are of the same race as we Russians are. So racism of even devoted Russian racists is very much theoretical -as well as theoretical was Soviet official anti-racism. Probably you remember old Soviet-time joke "I hate only two thing: racism and blacks". Even now i think less than 10% of Russians have EVER talked personally to the person of another race. But having said that, nothing like race segregating was present in Imperial Russia and Soviet Union. Fascists? I think not, there is nothing like organized fascism among ordinary people.

But there is great deal of what i think xenophobia is right word to describe. Rooted deeply in history. Do not know is it more xenophobia among ordinary Russians then among other nations, but it is definitely here. And combined with general disbelieve in "rule of law" and law reinforcement, it often result in crowds trying to take justice in own hands.

By the way typical Ukrainian argument about "Why Ukrainians are better than Russians" is "Ukrainians are of a pure Slavic blood, and Russians are the mix with Ugro-Finn (another version - mix with Mongols\Tatars)". I believe it is institutionalized racism.

 

 

BS. Here are your "fascists" (who are supposedly in jail) beating up migrants from central asia while yelling "white power" in English last October:

http://youtu.be/rx43dy8T4Ik

 

"Regular" people against the muslims:

 

You know very well that Russians are very racist - most common Russian slang for people from Caucasus are "black asses" which is used by ordinary people. A white girl with a non-white looking man will at best draw stares, and very likely negative comments about how she is a prostitute and so on (and I know that from a friend of mine who recently visited Moscow with her Puertorican boyfriend). So much for tolerant Russians...

 

Aww, cm'on. Not much more racist than the French (do I really need to say any more?) or, indeed, the Germans (not that easy too spot, google up Thilo Sarrazin and the wide public reception of his chef d'oeuvre by the wide mass of the Germans). Also, in the US of A, ain't there a saying that once a (white)woman goes black, she can never go back(no, nothing to do with what y'all thought :P )?..

Again, it is said(more as just that, a saying) that the immigrants from Caucasus only behave so badly because all the decent ones chose to stay home...

Edited by Blunt Eversmoke
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BS. Here are your "fascists" (who are supposedly in jail) beating up migrants from central asia while yelling "white power" in English last October:

http://youtu.be/rx43dy8T4Ik

 

"Regular" people against the muslims:

 

 

Both of your videos are from the same event in Birulevo. Here is long video of locals marching to storm Birulevo grocery depot (the object that caused the rioting) and storming the gates. Note how diverse is the crowd - nearly whole suburb taking part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVgOYEs42lw

 

 

You know very well that Russians are very racist - most common Russian slang for people from Caucasus are "black asses" which is used by ordinary people. A white girl with a non-white looking man will at best draw stares, and very likely negative comments about how she is a prostitute and so on (and I know that from a friend of mine who recently visited Moscow with her Puertorican boyfriend). So much for tolerant Russians...

 

Most of this “black asses" are in fact as "white" as Russians themselves. It is not racism but xenophobia. If you think Russian girl with white foreigner attract less attention – you are wrong. But white foreigner is less obvious to be foreigner.

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After the op., it appears that a few unarmed civilians are shot....

But they are evil Russian supporters who had it coming while crowd on Maidan trowing molotovs were peaceful protesters who somehow got their drinks on fire...

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You know very well that Russians are very racist - most common Russian slang for people from Caucasus are "black asses" which is used by ordinary people.

And to give our international members idea of “how black is black ass” -few photos from beauty queen contests on Caucases

 

Armenia

 

Georgia

 

 

Azerbaijan

 

 

Osetia

 

Chechnya

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Ukrainians trying to tow away broken BMP. Driver is saying to locals “I swear I will never come back”. Locals show knowledge in tank driving and are amazed by poor driving skills of soldiers

 

Seems like they failed

 

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You know very well that Russians are very racist - most common Russian slang for people from Caucasus are "black asses" which is used by ordinary people.

And to give our international members idea of “how black is black ass” -few photos from beauty queen contests on Caucases

 

Very indicative how illogical racial prejudice is.

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You know very well that Russians are very racist - most common Russian slang for people from Caucasus are "black asses" which is used by ordinary people.

And to give our international members idea of “how black is black ass” -few photos from beauty queen contests on Caucases

 

 

This does not prevent people from referring to them that way and you know it.

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After the op., it appears that a few unarmed civilians are shot....

But they are evil Russian supporters who had it coming while crowd on Maidan trowing molotovs were peaceful protesters who somehow got their drinks on fire...

 

 

Unarmed? I don't think so.

 

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Yeah, I noticed that. I also noticed that the first couple to get hit were from rounds ricocheting from the ground (guy kneeling and the other standing near him), and then it got a little more serious when the guy in blue runs at the soldiers (reportedly a RT reporter).

 

It's clearly a contested area, the lines are blurry (armed people in crowds) and it's chaotic.

 

I wonder why the BMP-2s went back later on? To clean up the abandoned one?

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http://youtu.be/m49dYtVeoNg

 

I watch these vids of Ukraine's streets and just keep thinking....."Damn, the streets are so WIDE, flat, decently-maintained, and empty. Perfect for drifting!" Side effects of being trapped on this tiny, crowded island.

 

Not sure why this vid was on ZeroHedge as "flipping tanks", because there are no tanks to be seen (only BMP-2s) and none of them "flip" IMO. Just a makeshift anti-tank barricade that fails at it's job.

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Id prefer both of them to have been left as they were. Is that such a tall order to expect in Europe the 21st Century?

 

Without Maidan, there would still be Ukraine stable and preparing for new legitimate presidential elections. It does not mean everything would be calm forever, since all contradictions were already there, but at least there was hope for peaceful solution. With Maidan, this hope was gone. I know you believe Maidan was legitimate - well, then results of it are also legitimate?

 

Without Yanukovych trying to screw the country and his people blind, they wouldn't have needed to overthrow him. And still we have this claim that legitimacy equals right. You have read up on King Richard II I guess? The divine right of kings died a long time ago fella, even in your own country.

 

True, and if people in the east want to kick Kiev regime out, good for them. No divine right of rulers and all that.

 

Anyone counting how many Ukrainians died under the Yanukovych regime and how many under the new one? And they are all Ukrainians right? Irrespectve of being Russian speakers or not, right?

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Id prefer both of them to have been left as they were. Is that such a tall order to expect in Europe the 21st Century?

 

Without Maidan, there would still be Ukraine stable and preparing for new legitimate presidential elections. It does not mean everything would be calm forever, since all contradictions were already there, but at least there was hope for peaceful solution. With Maidan, this hope was gone. I know you believe Maidan was legitimate - well, then results of it are also legitimate?

 

Without Yanukovych trying to screw the country and his people blind, they wouldn't have needed to overthrow him. And still we have this claim that legitimacy equals right. You have read up on King Richard II I guess? The divine right of kings died a long time ago fella, even in your own country.

 

 

I feel like you neatly ignored Roman's point there. To me it seemed like he was saying that the elections scheduled for 2015 would have given all of the people who participated in Maidan a chance to legally and legitimately express their dissatisfaction with the president by replacing him. Sure Yanukovich was corrupt and self-serving but elections in the Ukraine have thus far been by and large free and closely monitored by international observers.

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Id prefer both of them to have been left as they were. Is that such a tall order to expect in Europe the 21st Century?

 

Without Maidan, there would still be Ukraine stable and preparing for new legitimate presidential elections. It does not mean everything would be calm forever, since all contradictions were already there, but at least there was hope for peaceful solution. With Maidan, this hope was gone. I know you believe Maidan was legitimate - well, then results of it are also legitimate?

 

Without Yanukovych trying to screw the country and his people blind, they wouldn't have needed to overthrow him. And still we have this claim that legitimacy equals right. You have read up on King Richard II I guess? The divine right of kings died a long time ago fella, even in your own country.

 

 

I feel like you neatly ignored Roman's point there. To me it seemed like he was saying that the elections scheduled for 2015 would have given all of the people who participated in Maidan a chance to legally and legitimately express their dissatisfaction with the president by replacing him. Sure Yanukovich was corrupt and self-serving but elections in the Ukraine have thus far been by and large free and closely monitored by international observers.

 

 

Just wanted to add:

 

In other words, overthrowing a leader who has delegitimised himself might be justifiable if there is a suspicion that there is no peaceful and legal method for doing so. I'm not sure the Ukraine qualifies for this as there had been a couple of peaceful, legal transfers of power already. Had the good folks of Maidan waited for the election and seen Yanukovich falsifying the result in order to hold on to power then their revolt would have been justified. Overthrowing a leader violently when he can be removed by legal means (and in spite of concessions made in order to end the violence)... that's a coup.

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Without Yanukovych trying to screw the country and his people blind, they wouldn't have needed to overthrow him.

 

Point being elections would have been a better way to deal with the problem. Because once you declare insurrections cool others people can get the funny idea they can try them too. And then when the government, as any government would, sends troops to shoot the miscreants we are left in the dubious position of cheering "democratic" repression, after having spent years whining about and/or bombing governments we did no like for doing the same.

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This does not prevent people from referring to them that way and you know it.

 

It does not make them racists IMHO. But still, coming back to the topic, I do not see how sharing dislike to “blacks” could make Ukrainian Russians (or pro-Russians) agree to live in one state with this nice Western-Ukrainian kids chanting “Hang the Russians”. Note the date - 27 Nov 2013, long before any conflict with Russia. Slogans are “Ukraine is Europe", "Yes to EU”, “Student for Europe” and… “Hang the Russians”. If Europe want to have this new citizens – let them take them.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OxssR_H7I_k

Edited by Roman Alymov
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Sure, elections would be a better way to go. But then of course when opposition figures start being kidnapped, tortured or killed... Yanukhovych should have taken a cue from the West and just ignored the protests. Instead he took cue from his dear buddy Vladimir. And this time, the straw broke.Trying to blame it on :Maidan fascists kinda ignores what happened BEFORE molotovs started to fly. For months.

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