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As far as reality is concerned, quite how Russians can accept their own national leader lied to them, admits why he did it, and STILL claims it was a legitimate act by internal separatists inside Crimea who set it all up (when even the Russian Government now admits it was its own troops doing the stabilisation), that im afraid is skipping off from the reality we all inhabit into fantasy island. You fellows wanted the Crimea back. I can understand that, I even sympathise with it, but lets not bullshit that it was to save Russian lives and it was legal, because thats clearly utter nonsense.

 

 

Eastern Ukraine is looking more and more like a civil war while Crimea is happy and passive.

 

Are you saying that you know Crimea would not have become violent without Russian meddling? I call bullshit on that one if you. You're not saying that war in Crimea was the better outcome, are you?

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You ignore that inaction does things too. Putin is rallying his nation's people "look at me, look at me, the US is paying attention to me!" Why do we GAS? You people are the one's giving this guy $$$(power) because you have a fucked up energy policy, not us. Some people you just ignore, like the children they are. S/F....Ken M

We really have no standing to criticize anybody for fucked up energy policy.

 

 

The Hell we don't when they ask us to do their heavy lifting for them. Even if it's via our clown shoes State Dept. Perhaps especially when it's them.

 

It's seems that the US is importing less and less. Now if we can only get our nuke power online.... S/F....Ken M

 

 

Amen to that - we had a bunch of lefties up here in Ontario go for wind power of all the stupid shit possible, and now our power bills are going through the roof as nuclear has becoming increasingly neglected.

 

BTW - you're on a roll today. Keep it up.

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BTW, simply end to this stupid debate about it being to US advantage to get involved in this tar baby.

 

There's 180 pages of jibber jabber here on TN. It's a crazy long thread. Nobody even knows or can agree WTF is going on.

 

Why would you voluntarily get involved in that? What possible advantage can there be?

 

The US is in a defensive game, hold onto the ball, hold onto the money, we should have been playing keep away since the end of the CW.

 

All this "involvement" shit is for the scrambling hungry assholes who have nothing to lose. S/F....Ken M

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The Hell we don't when they ask us to do their heavy lifting for them. Even if it's via our clown shoes State Dept. Perhaps especially when it's them.

 

It's seems that the US is importing less and less. Now if we can only get our nuke power online.... S/F....Ken M

For the last 50 years, US has been doing heavy lifting for Middle Eastern arab states - State Department, Defense Department, Treasury Department - you name it. Like I said, it's pot calling the kettle black.

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Stuart, “boots on the ground” were there for more than last couple of centuries. Arguing about elections were unfair etc. – you should talk to people. Locals are really happy with what happened (majority of them). Some are not – well, nobody prosecutes them for it. I do know at least one girl from Crimea who is not happy – but she is working and living in Moscow anyway :) Real self defence forces where present, and now you can see some of this self-defence forces volunteering in Ukrainian mainland - despite the fact that, as you and Putin mentioned, Russian Navy and Army made possible for this self-defence to operate without facing Slavyansk situation, frightening Ukrainian military from any unwise steps.

How many Crimeans have you talked to, Roman, and how many of those were Crimean Tatars/Ukrainians?

 

And about “save Crimea from Fascists” – unfortunately Fascists where one of the driving forces of Maidan, and to great degree they are now in control of the situation in Ukraine. And majority of Crimeans were sick and tired of both them and dysfunctional Ukrainian state. Russia is far from perfect, but still they (Crimeans) believe it would be much better for them, despite even hardships they would face (do you know Ukraine cut fresh water supply to Crimea, for example?)

How many "Fascists" would you say participated in Maidan? 100,000? 200,000? 500,000?

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Any comment on that supposed report about 30% participation and only 15% for Crimea joining Russia? Was is survey all over the region? Only among the Tatars? Even so it would show the idylic 90+% result is a cooked up BS.

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Yes, and they should have been off the teat too.

 

BTW "because other monkeys are on the teat" how does that effect us saying "no teat for you?" Because we're supposed to give handouts to everybody?

 

Once again, the claims of children.

 

"Mom, Johnnie got candy, why can't I get candy!"

 

S/F....Ken M

Edited by EchoFiveMike
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The United States, by its pivot to Asia is now committed to safeguarding the economic and defensive stability of dysfunctional thirdworlders. This is a dilution of power available to support America's core allies such as Japan.

 

I would not be surprised to see the North Vietnamese attempt to gain a place at the foreign aid table at this point, to join those already gorging themselves.

Edited by Nobu
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Yes, and they should have been off the teat too.

 

BTW "because other monkeys are on the teat" how does that effect us saying "no teat for you?" Because we're supposed to give handouts to everybody?

 

Once again, the claims of children.

 

"Mom, Johnnie got candy, why can't I get candy!"

 

S/F....Ken M

You seriously think we give "handouts" out of the goodness of our heart? Bwahahaha.

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Not at all. What's the return?

 

The juice hasn't been worth the squeeze. S/F....Ken M

Stable oil prices. Access for American products to be sold in their markets. Freedom of navigation for ships carrying our goods to their markets, and their goods to ours. Prevention of rise of hegemonic enemy superpower. Stuff like that.

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Any comment on that supposed report about 30% participation and only 15% for Crimea joining Russia? Was is survey all over the region? Only among the Tatars? Even so it would show the idylic 90+% result is a cooked up BS.

 

Crimea is peaceful while Eastern Ukraine is blowing the shit out of itself.

 

Which outcome do you prefer?

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How many Crimeans have you talked to, Roman, and how many of those were Crimean Tatars/Ukrainians?

 

I am not pretending to have representative sample – but enough to understand general opinion. About Tatars – probably you do not know that from this reunification they got more than from from 20+ years of Ukrainian independence both in financial and legal terms (well, de-facto they were bought out by Russia, with Kazan Tatars and Chechens mediating and showing how well off they are now with Russian money). Like it or not, they have 200+ years of collaboration experience and no deep attachment to Ukraine. Of course there is still opposition from former Crimean Tatars leadership, which failed to switch sides quick enough and is now left with only small group of supporters. Backside of it is the fact that they (Tatars) may switch sides again if believe it is better for them – but now it is nothing like “Crimean Tatars partisan war against Russians” once promised by Ukrainians. They are not going to fight for Ukrainian interests, especially taking into account Ukraine neglected them through all independence years – now they have financial support from Russia, new Russian law rehabilitating “Crimean nations oppressed by Stalin” (not only Tatars but Greeks, Germans ets.), Tatar language as one of three official languages in Crimea (other two are Ukrainian and Russian) -and are in a position to negotiate even more benefits. Ukrainians? It is de-facto no difference between Russians and Ukrainians, at least in this region – it is not ethnic question but one of a political choice.

 

 

How many "Fascists" would you say participated in Maidan? 100,000? 200,000? 500,000?

 

I think it was less than 5,000 – but it is huge number when population is mostly passive and unorganized. During Russian Civil war even groups of 100-200 men were taking big cities, 50.000 Czechoslovakian core managed to take and hold for sometime most part of Russia from Volga to Pacific in 1918. And it is about the same number of active fighters as Chechens had.

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Stable oil prices. Access for American products to be sold in their markets. Freedom of navigation for ships carrying our goods to their markets, and their goods to ours. Prevention of rise of hegemonic enemy superpower. Stuff like that.

 

Hokum. While it might make the glad handers at State feel good, there is little evidence that bribing nations makes the world a better place. But I will concede that it frequently makes political campaign donors happy.

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The United States, by its pivot to Asia is now committed to safeguarding the economic and defensive stability of dysfunctional thirdworlders. This is a dilution of power available to support America's core allies such as Japan.

 

I would not be surprised to see the North Vietnamese attempt to gain a place at the foreign aid table at this point, to join those already gorging themselves.

Minor quibble.

 

There are no more North Vietnamese. They've all been simply Vietnamese since April 30, 1975.

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P.S. My take is: This people are definitely nationalists and some of them are right-wing (but some of the slogans they proclaim are traditional for Russian Communists). Are they fascists? May be, but they are doing their best not to show it openly since it is criminal offence.

Maybe fascists? You very well know that this is BS.

 

Here is "Russian" march 2012:

 

These are the same people who were beating up migrants from central asia in Biryulevo couple of months ago.

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And about “save Crimea from Fascists” – unfortunately Fascists where one of the driving forces of Maidan, and to great degree they are now in control of the situation in Ukraine. And majority of Crimeans were sick and tired of both them and dysfunctional Ukrainian state. Russia is far from perfect, but still they (Crimeans) believe it would be much better for them, despite even hardships they would face (do you know Ukraine cut fresh water supply to Crimea, for example?)

Just a minor nitpick - it is claimed that fresh water from Ukraine mainland (now cut off) was used on Crimea for irrigation of crops, not as potable water.

Edited by Blunt Eversmoke
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P.S. My take is: This people are definitely nationalists and some of them are right-wing (but some of the slogans they proclaim are traditional for Russian Communists). Are they fascists? May be, but they are doing their best not to show it openly since it is criminal offence.

Maybe fascists? You very well know that this is BS.

 

Here is "Russian" march 2012:

Note the difference between Y2012 and Y2013 Russian March on your video – nice people from your photo are mainly in jail now.

 

 

 

These are the same people who were beating up migrants from central asia in Biryulevo couple of months ago.

 

Not couple of month but last October – anyway, worst thing about this event (mass rioting directed against Caucasus migrants broke out after local man was killed by one of them) – worst thing is they were not created by Russian nationalists\fascists, but by ordinary local people, including elderly women, with nationalists rushing to participate but arriving too late, when all was over. Anti-migrant feelings are still popular in Russia (and even more popular in Ukraine – but they have less migrants because there is no jobs for them there). Still, I must say recently situation with illegal migrants was improved greately, with much stricter rules imposed on them last year.

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Just a minor nitpick - it is claimed that fresh water from Ukraine mainland (now cut off) was used on Crimea for irrigation of crops, not as potable water.

It is not exactly so: it was used for both irrigating and as potable water, but luckily potable water volume required is relatively small and replaceable by local sources – while irrigating volumes are too big to be substituted quickly.

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1) Note the difference between Y2012 and Y2013 Russian March on your video – nice people from your photo are mainly in jail now.

 

 

 

2) Not couple of month but last October – anyway, worst thing about this event (mass rioting directed against Caucasus migrants broke out after local man was killed by one of them) – worst thing is they were not created by Russian nationalists\fascists, but by ordinary local people, including elderly women, with nationalists rushing to participate but arriving too late, when all was over. Anti-migrant feelings are still popular in Russia (and even more popular in Ukraine – but they have less migrants because there is no jobs for them there). Still, I must say recently situation with illegal migrants was improved greately, with much stricter rules imposed on them last year.

 

 

1) Got any proof of that?

 

2) So you are saying that the ordinary citizens of Moscow are fascists and racists?

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I am not pretending to have representative sample – but enough to understand general opinion. About Tatars – probably you do not know that from this reunification they got more than from from 20+ years of Ukrainian independence both in financial and legal terms (well, de-facto they were bought out by Russia, with Kazan Tatars and Chechens mediating and showing how well off they are now with Russian money). Like it or not, they have 200+ years of collaboration experience and no deep attachment to Ukraine. Of course there is still opposition from former Crimean Tatars leadership, which failed to switch sides quick enough and is now left with only small group of supporters. Backside of it is the fact that they (Tatars) may switch sides again if believe it is better for them – but now it is nothing like “Crimean Tatars partisan war against Russians” once promised by Ukrainians. They are not going to fight for Ukrainian interests, especially taking into account Ukraine neglected them through all independence years – now they have financial support from Russia, new Russian law rehabilitating “Crimean nations oppressed by Stalin” (not only Tatars but Greeks, Germans ets.), Tatar language as one of three official languages in Crimea (other two are Ukrainian and Russian) -and are in a position to negotiate even more benefits. Ukrainians? It is de-facto no difference between Russians and Ukrainians, at least in this region – it is not ethnic question but one of a political choice.

Probably you do not know that the new Crimean administration is saying that anybody who doesn't toe the line can be evicted from wherever they live? And as far as "living as well as Chechens"...you're saying they are going to have 35% unemployment? Awesome! :D And the evidence of this huge support for Russian annexation comes from...independent polling? Or 1st channel reporter showing a crowd of smiling Crimean Tatars with sign "Putin is Right"?

 

 

 

I think it was less than 5,000 – but it is huge number when population is mostly passive and unorganized. During Russian Civil war even groups of 100-200 men were taking big cities, 50.000 Czechoslovakian core managed to take and hold for sometime most part of Russia from Volga to Pacific in 1918. And it is about the same number of active fighters as Chechens had.

Hmm...5,000 out of 500,000 people who participated. Yup, clearly Maidan was a fascist movement.

Edited by Gregory
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