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What does living on a island have to do with it? The British isles got invaded plenty of times.

 

As to Russian revolutions, every time, those Russians implemented some overbearing state apparatus with strong control over the individual. Power there originated with the state. Sure,MIT was couched as being for/by the people,but that was a fig leaf.

 

We can see that now with the nonsensical, Cold War era justifications of how a free election is run when projected from the barrel of a gun and you have "98% participation". And, you're still here justifying it like a good apparatchik..

 

 

I'm an American btw. But, us cousins share a common heritage and the Brits tend to grok us more, though we argue about the finer details, hence the current difference in government. They eventually came around to some of our thinking....

 

You Russians still seem to be stuck in the realm of Iron Fists in velvet gloves for political ideals.

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Funny enough the Vikings played a major role in both countries formation, so I say blame the Danes.

In Russian case Vikings (by one of the theory, another one this guys were from Baltic Slaves) played positive role of “independent managers”, invited by the union of Slavic tribes to rule this union without belonging to any of the tribes and so not braking the balance.

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The west doing it for the past 60 years had a significant effect on causing the Arab Spring.

 

 

The cold harsh reality is that for any human group more complex than a tribe the default form of government is some kind of authoritarianism. It takes a great deal of social, cultural, political and economic ducks lined in a row to get modern representative democracy to even just sort of work. If those aren't in place it just won't function, period.

As it happened in Russia democracy was declared amid great fanfare but without much in the way of underlying foundation it crumbled before getting anywhere and the country defaulted to rule by strongman in the Kremlin. This is not exactly a first, we are just witnessing the same phenomenon in Egypt with power shifting back to the military. The alternative is of course anarchy,which Libya is currently flirting with for example, a state of affairs strongly disliked by pretty much anyone who has experienced it.

If certain trends hold we might see some of of this stuff up close and personal in the West too some time down the road; for the same reasons I am not sure many of the newcomers will be able to get their ducks lined too.

By the way I would not get too fixated on Putin personality either, he was just in the right position at the right time, somewhat like Napoleon who got the job because Joubert had got a bullet.

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How must we call this nice people?

 

 

Maybe you should clean up your own house before looking across the border - "Russian march", Moscow

Edited by yak_v
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Along with Baghdad Jay, we now have Baghdad Jen;

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j-lsAKQgog

 

You can see the problem with America's kneepads-and-chapstick press corps. When non-USian pressies catch the administration in a misstatement, things kinda unravel. Here's more from RT;

 

http://rt.com/usa/psaki-rt-russian-translation-837/

 

The RT reporter is substantially hotter than Ms. Psaki, so I have to say that RT won this round. ;)

 

Looking at the number of Jen Psaki booboo videos on Youtube, I'll float out the theory that Psaki is the Eddie Gaedel of the Obama administration.

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Maybe you should clean up your own house before looking across the border - "Russian march", Moscow

 

Thank you for excellent example! Let me do some transcripts for our non-Russian speakers to judge themselves the difference:

00:00 (banner "Ethnopolitical union Russians") Chanting "One for all, all for one", "Only Russians, only victory", "Abolish 282" (RA - 282 is number of law punishing for inflaming national hate) , "Russian authority for Russia", "Russian means sober"

01:55 chanting "Who we are? - We are Russians"

03:38 slogan "Russians! Enemies are many. But we are stronger. Tighten the ranks! We would all die. Don't be affraid. Victory is the main goal"

04:49 - chanting "No to (can't understand) from Caucasus", "Hail to Russia!"

05:05 - chanting "When we are united, we are undefeatable", carrying slogan "Down with juvenile inquisition"

05:20 - chanting "Russia, we are with you!", carrying slogan "No to political repressions"

05:51 - clapping hands and chanting "Moscow", carrying slogan against building mosques? (can't read)

06:11 - jumping and chanting "Who is not jumping - is tchurka (literally - piece of wood, used also as abusive term to Central Asians etc.)"

06:51 - banner "We demand visa regime with Middle Asia countries" chanting "What Russians choose? Russians choose freedom", "Yes to freedom, no to dictatorship"

07:52 - banner "When Slaves are united, they are undefeatable", chanting "Glory to Slaves"

08:24 - banner "To be Russian means to be warrior. Great new industrialization (?)" chanting "Russians-forward!" and "Russian flag over Kremlin"

09:19 - banner "Party of nationalists" chanting "Hail to Russia!"

09:50 - banner "Russian runs for healthy way of life", "Russian - be sober", chanting "Russia for Russians, Moscow for moscovites"

10:00 - banner "Russian means sober"

10:21 - banner "Right for self-protection is sacred. Cossack Perer Molodilov is political prisoner, jailed for saving Russian girl from ethnic bandits" chanting "Christ is risen!" (RA - traditional Easter chant), "Glory to Christ, death to devil"

10:32 - banner "One law for all!!! We demand justice for Evgeny Strigin: 9 years in jail for protecting family" chanting "Free Cossack prisoners", "No to nickel mining on Khoper river, hands off from Cossack land"

10:51 - singing funny Ukrainian folk song

 

12:05 - (from the scene) - "Dear friends, unfortunately because of bad weather we will not have the meeting, but our Russian March was successful. Hail to Russia!" "We would read you 14 points of Russian March

We demand creation of Russian national state. We demand President and Parliament to resign

We demand freedom of speech, meetings and elections. Free registration of political parties. Nationalists to Parliament!

We demand abolishing anti-Russian criminal laws 282 and 280(?). We demand disbanding police and security units involved in political prosecution. We demand freedom for all political prisoners.

(13:30) We demand cleaning out thefts and bandits out of power and law reinforcement. Every official and police officer to pass through polygraph test. Thefts - get out in 5 minutes!

We demand quitting World Trade Organization. We demand new industrialization of Russia. Nationalize raw materials, oil and gas. Ensure European standards in work payments. Limit fuel and communal prices.

(14:50) We demand keeping independence of Russian Academy of Science. We demand payments for students to be not lower then subsistence wage. Russian science always was among world's best, so let's keep it

We demand program to support national health. We demand stop selling genetically modified products, stop importing nuclear wastes, we demand propaganda of healthy way of life

We demand political representation to be proportional to ethnic composition. We are 82%, so we want 82% of power

We demand stop paying disproportionally high subsidy to North Caucasus republics

We demand right concealed firearms legalized. We are free people and have the right to be armed.

(16:45) We demand elections of Judges and local police heads

We demand stop foreign colonization of Russia. We demand visa regime with countries of Central Asia and Caucasus. We demand stop giving citizenship to migrants from this countries. We demand 10 years of labor for illegal migration to Russian Federation. We demand zero tolerance to ethnic organized crime. Yes to visas!(17:31)

We have to save Russian land for the future of Russian people and Russian children.

 

(18:21) Then representative of the one and only resisted Russian nationalist political party is praising unity of fractions present on the march, from Orthodox do pagan believes reenactors, and say something "Today Navalny said he is not to come because we are too marginal for him. Now we Russians are marginal to all, and it is our strengh because it keeps us united"

Edited by Roman Alymov
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P.S. My take is: This people are definitely nationalists and some of them are right-wing (but some of the slogans they proclaim are traditional for Russian Communists). Are they fascists? May be, but they are doing their best not to show it openly since it is criminal offence. They operate under strict police control and are marginalized - Ukrainian fascists are now police themselves, western politicians meet their leader . This video is from poor suburbs of Moscow, while large part of Ukrainian one is from Kiev center.

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There are reports from Ukrainian goverment that a border post was attacked from Russian side with armed men during the night.

Probably you mean this report http://mvs.gov.ua/mvs/control/luhansk/ru/publish/article/153343

 

"7 мая в 18:10 к КПП «Изварино» на 4 микроавтобусах подъехали 30-35 вооруженных лиц в камуфляже и масках и остановились на расстоянии 200 м от КПП. Примерно в 20:30 через государственную границу с территории РФ через ограду «Волна» совершил несанкционированный въезд на территорию Украины автомобиль «Тигр» зеленого цвета (УЕ 986 К 77 рус), который уехал в неизвестном направлении. После этого неизвестные на микроавтобусах с места происшествия скрылись."

 

"About 30-35 unknown armed and uniformed men on 4 minibuses approached border crossing at 200meyets (seems like from Ukrainian side - RA). Following this, green “Tiger” car number plate УЕ 986 К 77 рус broke through border crossing from Russian side and left in unknown direction. Armed men also left after it.”

 

In fact it was Jirinovsky gift to leader of separatists in Lugansk on the way – now it is already there (but it is blue not green)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5tn8mEk6r8I

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Hilarious conversation (if real) between a Donetsk separatist and Russian ultranationalist Aleksandr Barkashov concerning planned referendum. Separatists would have apparently wanted to hold a real referendum as per international law and everything, Barkashov is aghast of the idea and says to just fake it up.

 

Preface claims the conversation is evidence from Russian Federation involvment, however the guys on the audio actually whine about lack of support from Putin and I find it very doubtful Russia would use someone like Barkashov (bona fide neonazi) as their proxy...

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Im not trying to convince anyone of anything. I merely illustrate if a Government is behaving illegally, than any action against it is perfectly legitimate, because the rule of law arguably no longer applies. After all, Isn't that rather the argument Putin used when he stole Ukrainian territory?

 

By using words “Putin used when he stole Ukrainian territory” you are IMHO leading yourself away of reality of the ground - which is population of the territory walked out from Ukraine, taking their territory with them.

Without taking any actions against Ukrainian government in Kiev by the way, no IRA\ETA-style bombing campaigns etc.

Edited by Roman Alymov
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You assume what's going to affect me isnt going to affect you too? Its called interconnected markets, and if the penny has not dropped after an inconsequential little problem called 'Sub prime mortgage slump' then it never will. What affect do you suppose rising gas prices are going to have on the US economy? Remember what happened in 1973 with rising fuel prices?

http://econompicdata.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/interconnected-markets.html

Putin would oppose any form of action the US takes, even when its in his interest. You could abolish global poverty and he would approach it as if its were a bad idea. :)

 

Economic effects of private business are trivial compared to the magnitude of jackassery when the USG gets involved. Look up US expenditures on Vietnam and the WOT and then come back and talk about trivial numbers like billions. All this subprime and other financial sector scheming treachery is directly a result of government involvement. It crashed because the USG forced stupid loans, via mandates and taxpayer backing. Or facilitating theft by deception of the sociopathic creatures endemic to the financial sector. If said sociopaths simply prey upon each other, who cares? It's when they can get at taxpayer money that it goes to a shitshow. And they always scheme at how to do so, it's the biggest pot on the table, nothing else even comes close.

 

 

Well your nation was built on the back of similar people who left Europe because of the pogroms, or genocide or various other mishaps and slaughters down the years. I dont suppose all your countrymen feel the same way.

 

Who gives a shit? They came here to get away from the problems of there. If they want to still be involved with the problems of there, they can go the fuck back! Why should we change the way we do things because new assholes come and put their feet on the table? You don't like how you do things here, leave!

 

It was called A9 and A10. The silo they built to house it still exists in a German stone quarry.

http://www.century-of-flight.net/Aviation%20history/WW2/icbm.htm

Perhaps Anthrax is not the most likely, though the Nazis certainly experimented with it. Tabun looks more likely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabun_%28nerve_agent%29

Not just us and the Germans it would appear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_biological_weapons_program

 

I've aware of all that, with a little luck, they might land a couple hundred kilos payload somewhere on continental North America by the late 40's. At which point, the B36 fleet(actually fielded) with 100's of nukes(actually fielded) would do "Bad Things" to Europe, whatever it's condition of occupation.

 

You started WW2 regarded as a bit player suffering from an economic depression, and ended WW2 as one of only two superpowers (the worlds only nuclear power), with global reach and the worlds most powerful financial system with products everyone wanted to buy (particulary aircraft and shipping). Compare that to the Uk which lost the empire, lost world position, had a massive housing shortage, our economy was in tatters and remained in rationing till the mid 50s, and was in debt to your good selves for the next 50 years. Hmm, lets think about that one. Somehow I think the argument that America got a shitty deal out of WW2 is not something that really stands up to a moments analysis. Even the Soviets got more out of it than we did, albeit at far greater cost.

 

The US had what, 50%+ of the world's manufacturing potential idled at the beginning of WW2, there was simply no way, in Hell, that wasn't going to matter. Whether we got into the ETO too or just the PTO was meaningless to that economic revival. Basically, what you're saying, is that the ETO was the only thing that mattered, PTO was irrelevant. I'm saying you're wrong. We were powerful at the end of WWII because ETO and PTO was a burned husk and we were not. That's a fortune of geography, no other reason. Stop with the bullshit guilting attempts, OK? We don't owe you anything. You don't owe us anything either.

 

Ok, you dont worry about 6 million dead Jews. Duly noted. What about 30 million dead Russians? At what point does a slaughter register on your threshold of 'well maybe we better do something about it'?

 

You're free to do whatever you like, it's that you keep trying to get somebody else to do the work for you that's pissing me off. I don't care about dead Jews, or dead Poles, or dead Gypsies, or dead Russians, Chinese, Germans, French, British or whatever foreigners you care to name. I care about dead Americans, and only Americans. Period. All these foreigners have their own governments and their own organizations working for their own interests. I don't want them in my business, and I won't stick my nose in theirs, until it effects me. Where do you people get this fucking entitlement to our money, men and material on your behalf?

 

Right so whats right for the US in increasing the global radiation index? I keep pointing this out but it still doesnt seem to register.Not least the point that becoming a genocidal maniac to stop a genocidal maniac doesnt strike me as a particularly well conceived policy.

 

Right? There is no "rights" in international relations. There is only power to accomplish your goals, or lack thereof. This servile childlike pretending to some sort of greater authority beyond simple raw power is disturbing and ignorant. Nations either do or do not because of power or it's lack. There isn't some international parental or God-like authority to arbitrate their actions, no matter how much smaller, less powerful nations try to create them to rein in the larger. It's lawfare, but it doesn't, and CAN'T overcome the fact that words on paper are just words on paper. How much can you kill and destroy of the other guy's while preventing same to yours is the thing that matters. The only thing that matters. Now and forever.

 

No, you brought 911 on yourselves by the assumption the US public would not approve serious action against Bin laden if they were informed how dangerous he was. You had the ability to go into Afghanistan before it happened, and Clinton, perhaps predictably, ticked the problem (smoked but did not inhale? Came but did not penetrate? Pick your own metaphor) Bush changed that policy, very late, and far too late to do anything. Maybe you think you can avoid all the problems the world throws your way, but I think thats a terribly naive view. If two world wars, a revolutionary war, a cold war and a war on terror have not disabused you of that notion, I dont suppose I can. Or maybe you think global financiers dropped all those on you as well?

 

 

The US public elected Bill Clinton, and therefore deserves the results of that election. Same as everybody else. And you're right back to your core meme with "do something!" (that benefits us mostly, but it's for your own good! We both speak English!)

 

Look, we're stuck on this rock with the rest of you people, but we have the good fortune to be isolated by these large bodies of water. Since the beginning, the basic nature of US foreign policy was "we left those assholes behind, we worry about our problems. Their problems are their problems, not our problems." You fuckers OTOH, have been playing "lets bring everyone we can in, with us(for us) against the other guy." We don't want to play your game, that simple. Our government has gotten away from us, because playing that stupid game makes them money and gains them power. Too bad for us Americans.

 

 

As for Japan, lets overlook that they had embarked on an aggressive policy against their neighbours already, and had a stated aim for acquiring colonies. They would have attacked you anyway, simply because they wanted the phillipines and wanted to curb US influence in the far east. Again, maybe you think thats a bullet you could have dodged. Or maybe the Japanese would rightly have perceived weakness, and forced you to make deal after deal all the way down the line to their advantage by avoiding war. That ultimately is what appeasement is, and like it or not, that is exactly what you argument is offering.

 

You think we could have avoided war after Pearl Harbor? Or even seizure of the PI? No chance in Hell. Hell, we didn't even need to ignore little Hitler going "me too, I'm at war with the US too!" just go PTO first, while the ETO grinds down to our advantage. Would doubtless have saved the 8th Air Force casualties. Escorted B29's vs Germany.....

 

 

You know what, dont do anything. There is no reason why you should. No reason why you should stand by any policy, or stand for anything at all. But as ive pointed out many times in this thread, inaction can often be as bad as taking a position you would prefer not to take. Ask Neville Chamberlain. And he didn't avoid conflict in the end either did he?

 

You ignore that inaction does things too. Putin is rallying his nation's people "look at me, look at me, the US is paying attention to me!" Why do we GAS? You people are the one's giving this guy $$$(power) because you have a fucked up energy policy, not us. Some people you just ignore, like the children they are. S/F....Ken M

 

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Newly restored T-34-85 now standing beside pro-Russian-occupied SBU building in Lugansk

BnGVgCNIgAAJTvd.jpg

From L to R: Yes, Yes, ....eh...need to see her face, but probably a yes.

 

Meanwhile, is the annexation of Donetsk coming?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-08/here-comes-crimea-20-following-referendum-donetsk-will-vote-become-part-russia

Yesterday we correctly predicted that while the world is distracted by this and that, the next real short-term catalyst is the east Ukraine referendum vote on Sunday, whose results would be available as soon as May 11, indicating that, almost with 100% certainty, the Ukraine region would vote to become independent.

 

This was promptly followed by a skillful diplomatic gambit by Putin who, knowing full well Donetsk would just say no, suggested the referendum be postponed thus giving himself cover when the western press attacked him for using Crimean tactics for the second time in two months. This was confirmed this morning when the Donetsk "separatists" indeed politely thanked Putin for his concern, but decided to proceed with this weekend's referendum anyway.

 

The irony is that as we also explained yesterday, the Crimea scenario is fully in play once more. Confirming precisely that was news from News of Donbass which reported moments ago that in the aftermath of the new certain May 11 referendum, a week later east Ukraine will formalize the Russia annexation process and on May 18 there will be a "second round of the referendum where you will be asked to support accession to the Donestk region of Russia."

 

In summary: in one master stroke, Putin "distanced" himself from the Donetsk administration so he is not seen as pulling their strings, and more importantly, in 10 days, said Donetsk republic will formally join Russia.

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"About 30-35 unknown armed and uniformed men on 4 minibuses

 

 

Too bad Tomas doesn't still build models, I'd like to see a Ukrainian Civil War Assault Mini-Bus.

 

BEFORE and AFTER - detained civilian from Donbass is bleeding after meeting with member of ucranian parliament Oleg Lyashko (who demanded executions and personally kidnapped at least one person Ars+en Klinchaev who publicly spoke about federalization of Ucrania)

 

 

Edited by X-Files
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Meanwhile, is the annexation of Donetsk coming?

.

 

Do not think so, because

  1. Opinions in Donetsk region are much more divided then in Crimea
  2. There are Ukrainian forces conducting military operations there and controlling at least part of the territory -there is no way to organize proper referendum there and, even if results accepted anyway – no way to expel this forces without bloodshed

Another thing I do not understand is why Ukrainian, Western and Russian media are all concentrated on Slavyansk situation, ignoring the fact Lugansk region border is now de-facto open, airspace not controlled (since air-defense radar burned), track loads of Cossack volunteers going in and taking cities…. In Donetsk pro-Russians reportedly took military depot with weaponary mobilization stocks – no word about it. Ukrainian officials pretend business as usual, handing out awards to the troops around Slavyansk and seems like not worried at all.

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Newly restored T-34-85 now standing beside pro-Russian-occupied SBU building in Lugansk

BnGVgCNIgAAJTvd.jpg

 

It's the Kitsap Naval Militia!

 

After about an hour of work, the Kitsap crew was finishing up on its impromptu Soviet armor platoon at the Karlshorst Museum. Black sooty smoke belched out of exhausts as engines which hadn't been turning for decades cranked to life. With a crunching sound, the T-34/85 rolled backwards off its sloped concrete pedestal. It maneuvered out between that and the memorial wall dedicated to the heroic soldiers of the great Soviet Army who had conquerered Berlin at the end of the Great Pariotic War, brushing against the smaller concrete block with a piece of bridge girder penetrated by an AP shot in the battle for the city on top as it pulled up in front of the museum inside which its staff were still having weird dreams from cornre durg injections.

 

I guess that means Putin will unleash the Klumbots sometime soon.

 

Or probably not, as my cautious conviction that there will be no large-scale Russian intervention has somewhat solidified. There was a mounting war scare here after the kidnapping of the OSCE observers, events at Odessa and the Ukrainian offensive, then I blessedly had a prolonged weekend off with marginal TV and internet reception (not that depictions thereon have much resemblance to the real world as it presents itself through my line of work, nor does that currently leave me much time to participate); when I returned on Monday, published opinion was still in panic mode, but analysis began to surface that Moscow was starting to back down for various reasons given, some of them contradictory:

 

- They had lost control of the situation in Eastern Ukraine and realized they would invade into a quagmire of their own making; this seems borne out by the Donetsk separatists' refusal to postpone their Sunday referendum as proposed by Putin yesterday. Though one suggestion was that Putin's move was motivated by realization that the referendum would show a lack of support for secession, allegations about fixed results notwithstanding; and another that it was just lip service in the face of international pressure.

 

- Parading the OSCE hostages on TV was a PR disaster that undermined portrayal of the separatists as peaceful victims of Ukrainian persecution. This is somewhat at odds with reports that the group was taken by a "highly professional" force, then handed over to the separatists, alleging the former may have been Russian. There are any number of explanations around that contradiction (local professionals supporting the separatists; setting up a situation to be resolved through Russian intervention with the hostagetakers; or plain miscalculating impact), but the result was the same anyway.

 

Whatever, I think that if they wanted to invade, they would have done so over the last week when Ukrainian actions would have delivered the best pretext. As it is, I still believe the risk of both getting mired in occupation due to insufficient support on the ground and the economic impact of inevitable sanctions is judged too high.

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You ignore that inaction does things too. Putin is rallying his nation's people "look at me, look at me, the US is paying attention to me!" Why do we GAS? You people are the one's giving this guy $$$(power) because you have a fucked up energy policy, not us. Some people you just ignore, like the children they are. S/F....Ken M

We really have no standing to criticize anybody for fucked up energy policy.

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Stuart, “boots on the ground” were there for more than last couple of centuries. Arguing about elections were unfair etc. – you should talk to people. Locals are really happy with what happened (majority of them). Some are not – well, nobody prosecutes them for it. I do know at least one girl from Crimea who is not happy – but she is working and living in Moscow anyway :) Real self defence forces where present, and now you can see some of this self-defence forces volunteering in Ukrainian mainland - despite the fact that, as you and Putin mentioned, Russian Navy and Army made possible for this self-defence to operate without facing Slavyansk situation, frightening Ukrainian military from any unwise steps.

 

And about “save Crimea from Fascists” – unfortunately Fascists where one of the driving forces of Maidan, and to great degree they are now in control of the situation in Ukraine. And majority of Crimeans were sick and tired of both them and dysfunctional Ukrainian state. Russia is far from perfect, but still they (Crimeans) believe it would be much better for them, despite even hardships they would face (do you know Ukraine cut fresh water supply to Crimea, for example?)

Edited by Roman Alymov
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The answer is simple: because it is very difficult, practically impossible to fight against the will of the people. Here I would like to thank the Ukrainian military – and this is 22,000 fully armed servicemen. I would like to thank those Ukrainian service members who refrained from bloodshed and did not smear their uniforms in blood.

 

 

Interesting article on the use of cyber warfare in Crimea the other day,

 

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/NATO+scrambles+knit+together+cyberwarfare+strategy+face/9812095/story.html

 

Ukraine was absolutely disconnected from being able to do anything with their forces in that area. Cyber was one of three tools used, and used quite exquisitely."

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You ignore that inaction does things too. Putin is rallying his nation's people "look at me, look at me, the US is paying attention to me!" Why do we GAS? You people are the one's giving this guy $$$(power) because you have a fucked up energy policy, not us. Some people you just ignore, like the children they are. S/F....Ken M

We really have no standing to criticize anybody for fucked up energy policy.

 

 

The Hell we don't when they ask us to do their heavy lifting for them. Even if it's via our clown shoes State Dept. Perhaps especially when it's them.

 

It's seems that the US is importing less and less. Now if we can only get our nuke power online.... S/F....Ken M

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