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Seems like real name for Slavyansk is Sparta.

 

 

 

 

 

Summary

Citizens of the Ukrainian city of Lugansk, 30 kilometres from the Russian border, are learning how to use Kalashnikovs in case the looming threat of civil war becomes reality.

Pro-Russian fervour is sweeping eastern Ukraine and has intensified following the deaths of 24 people in the southern port of Odessa on Friday, many of them pro-Russian militants who died in a building fire.

Pro-Russian militants seized control of Lugansk's security agency a month ago and the separatist leader in the city of half a million people has told local military commanders to swear allegiance to their self-styled "Lugansk Republic" or get out.

 

 

Video here

http://www.france24.com/en/20140505-civilians-lugansk-ready-civil-war/

 

Reading music

http://youtu.be/CD3fCVPBgcQ

 

Whyever would one need personally-owned firearms? That could never happen here.

 

Tee hee.

Edited by X-Files
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I think this is not shootdown video. This is when the helicopter itself was firing upon targets. Here is from another angle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z4Ng4qFkDY#t=81

 

The shootdown this time is reported to have been due to large caliber fire, not Iglas.

 

 

Video of the event - The most interesting for me is woman talking by mobile (?) saying something like “There is a helicopter hovering and firing, could you please do something about it?” Like if calling plumber to fix the tap. Seems like real name for Slavyansk is Sparta.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctH57Xi4aH8

 

 

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She got her AK in “safe” position, not ready to shot.

 

 

Exactly correct, when moving the weapon should be placed to 'safe'. Her finger is also outside the trigger guard.

 

How were you trained to fire and move?

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Exactly correct, when moving the weapon should be placed to 'safe'. Her finger is also outside the trigger guard.

 

How were you trained to fire and move?

 

We were told to keep it at “single” with finger away from trigger, since when danger suddenly appear – most probably we would forget to switch from “safe” to “fire” :) But we were not supposed to have any real need to operate AK, since our weapon was ICBMs not handguns, and if we have to – it is something wrong going on anyway :)

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Its called global capitalism. You dont have to like it to note that it still works better than the Putin model, which is similar but based primarily on state control (Gasp, Socialism!)

 

Some people believe Putin himself is controlled by oligarch elite (on whom US sanctions is targeted) – so it is not exactly socialism.

Not such a big difference from “global capitalism” (call it “local capitalism” is you like).

Edited by Roman Alymov
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Video of the event - The most interesting for me is woman talking by mobile (?) saying something like “There is a helicopter hovering and firing, could you please do something about it?” Like if calling plumber to fix the tap. Seems like real name for Slavyansk is Sparta.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctH57Xi4aH8

 

Hovering and engaging targets in a war zone without any clear front lines, brilliant :o

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Interview of Mi-24 commander (shot down today). He say their task was to find and destroy BMP stolen from Ukrainian troops. Hit (probably by HMG fire), suffered hydraulic system failure resulting in graduall loss of control, landed helicopter into swamp, left it and called rescue helicopter by his cellular phone.

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Maybe but only as the cherry on top. A lot of things have already happened or were already in motion as Crimea was taking such as the return of the US navy in the Philippines and two B-52 bombers flying right through the Chinese air defence zone as it was made. And even then, South Korea expanded their air defense zone to overlap with China's. Recently Obama said that the US will defend all territory of Japan even explicitly saying the Senkaku islands when he visited Japan in April. Japan on the other side has scrambled hundreds of times jets to meet Chinese intrusions, boosted military presence around the islands with practices in the event of an invasion, and is building a new radar station closer to the island. And Japan is making moves to change its constitution so that Japan will be able to participate in "collective defense" with ally nations. I think the message is already quite strong without the events in the Ukraine at all.

 

 

The Allied forces in the Pacfic have pretty much set out their position. It remains to be seen what the Chinese are going to do, and how Beijing reacts to the Ukrainian crisis might be indicative. Right now, the Chinese are studiously focused on a fly on the wall rather than take a stand, which seems to suggest (and I hope) they are not ready/willing for a more serious confrontation in the Pacific.

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I don't want them to do either, I want them to stay the fuck out. Russian 'help' can be equally disastrous as Russian aggression, that's a common knowledge here in Central Europe.

 

And I can only see one scenario in which the Ukrainian events can 'spread east', i.e. when the Ukrainians become a successful country in some 10-15 years, this will be a danger to the very system Mr. Putin has built in Russia. And it would be a Good Thing™.

 

 

I have an uneasy feeling that the violence spreading west to Odessa isn't the end of the matter, that it will 'hop' to Moldova. Putin might have had a hand in starting things in Eastern Ukraine, but the west also seems dilluded to think that once the match is lit that the fire won't spread on its own.

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As for Japan, lets overlook that they had embarked on an aggressive policy against their neighbours already, and had a stated aim for acquiring colonies. They would have attacked you anyway, simply because they wanted the phillipines and wanted to curb US influence in the far east. Again, maybe you think thats a bullet you could have dodged. Or maybe the Japanese would rightly have perceived weakness, and forced you to make deal after deal all the way down the line to their advantage by avoiding war. That ultimately is what appeasement is, and like it or not, that is exactly what you argument is offering.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sort of opens up alternative history speculation if there was no provocation of Pearl Harbor, no Flying Tigers, no Hump supply, no sub harassment on oil from the Indies. Maybe Japan could have knocked out China.

 

 

 

 

Maybe but only as the cherry on top. A lot of things have already happened or were already in motion as Crimea was taking such as the return of the US navy in the Philippines and two B-52 bombers flying right through the Chinese air defence zone as it was made. And even then, South Korea expanded their air defense zone to overlap with China's. Recently Obama said that the US will defend all territory of Japan even explicitly saying the Senkaku islands when he visited Japan in April. Japan on the other side has scrambled hundreds of times jets to meet Chinese intrusions, boosted military presence around the islands with practices in the event of an invasion, and is building a new radar station closer to the island. And Japan is making moves to change its constitution so that Japan will be able to participate in "collective defense" with ally nations. I think the message is already quite strong without the events in the Ukraine at all.

 

 

The Allied forces in the Pacfic have pretty much set out their position. It remains to be seen what the Chinese are going to do, and how Beijing reacts to the Ukrainian crisis might be indicative. Right now, the Chinese are studiously focused on a fly on the wall rather than take a stand, which seems to suggest (and I hope) they are not ready/willing for a more serious confrontation in the Pacific.

 

 

They won't make any serious attempt on the islands if Japan and the US wont let them walk on it, not until another 5 or so years when the question needs to be looked at again. A shooting war will hurt them and their economy worse than it would hurt Japan and the US.

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One slight problem with the International Adolf Hitler Chicken Little Detection Unit these days - ever so convieniently, new Hitlers seem to be discovered all the time. And surprise, they always just happen to be the current countries that the hard right Washington elite might want to bomb next.

 

I just can't let the meme that the hard left Washington elite is all about doves and olive branches while it is the hard right Washington elite that is bomb happy, stand unchallenged, so I have just three questions.

 

I forget, who was it that was left sulking after they were denied the option of bombing Syria? Who is it that was strutting about bragging to everyone that would listen about the efficacy of his drone war? Who was it that never tired of talking about how they bombed Serbia and Kosovo from 15,000 feet and didn't suffer any ground casualties?

 

 

Fair enough - one of the Russian posters elsewhere mentioned that the difference between left and right in Washington can't be seen when it comes to foriegn affairs.

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Roman, Im not going to sneer at Russia and portray superiority, particularly as Ive voiced grave problems with our own system on numerous other threads, not least corruption. But however bad Western Capitalism is, it doesnt allow things like this to happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukos

That in my view is capitalism that is state manipulated. That is a considerable way down the road from what the Americans accuse Obama of trying to do, introducing Socialism into pure market capitalism. Maybe Putin isnt a Socialist, but he is certainly capable of doing thing that look remarkably like their methods. You dont meddle with the free market, even to state advantage. Thats a no1 rule of Western Capitalism, and whatever the consequences its one we usually stick to.

 

 

 

“But however bad Western Capitalism is, it doesnt allow things like this to happen” - you are absolutely right, it is hard to imagine in bad Western Capitalism young party boss Khodorkovsky to transform into country’s richest man in less than decade by using his political links and personal relations and grabbing huge pieces of what was national property. Do not forget that Russian capitalism is only about 25 yo and all this huge plants, oil\gas reserves etc. where not created by current owners but de-facto stolen. And current owners are not those who were best in business, but those who were best in stealing -

they just can’t manage effectively huge assets they got.

What Putin is doing is something like “Ok, we all know how you get all this stuff - but you can keep it if you obey certain rules”. May be it is not very free market approach – but unfortunately it seems like Russia could not survive few more decades of “Wild capitalism”. We would just die out. What are other options - de-privatisation?

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You know what, dont do anything. There is no reason why you should. No reason why you should stand by any policy, or stand for anything at all. But as ive pointed out many times in this thread, inaction can often be as bad as taking a position you would prefer not to take. Ask Neville Chamberlain. And he didn't avoid conflict in the end either did he?

 

I mentioned the 1935 Anglo-Italian crisis and how it alienated Italy from Paris and London. By overreacting to what was nearly irrelevent Italian aggression in Africa, the British and French expended much of their diplomatic capital that they needed later with Hitler. Therefore, in 1935 the Allies should have done nothing and let the Italians putter at empire. You ignore this lesson from history, where doing nothing would have worked much better, but still continue to insist that action should be taken on the basis of a crisis that could not have occurred had the British not alienated the Italians in 1935.

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I don't want them to do either, I want them to stay the fuck out. Russian 'help' can be equally disastrous as Russian aggression, that's a common knowledge here in Central Europe.

 

And I can only see one scenario in which the Ukrainian events can 'spread east', i.e. when the Ukrainians become a successful country in some 10-15 years, this will be a danger to the very system Mr. Putin has built in Russia. And it would be a Good Thing™.

 

 

I have an uneasy feeling that the violence spreading west to Odessa isn't the end of the matter, that it will 'hop' to Moldova. Putin might have had a hand in starting things in Eastern Ukraine, but the west also seems dilluded to think that once the match is lit that the fire won't spread on its own.

 

 

Oh no argument here. In actual fact I could quite believe Putin doesnt need to do anything more than sit with his tanks on the border and watch as the elections got to ratshit. Now the ball is rolling, he doesnt need to do a damn thing.

 

I agree. I think what will happen next is that the separatists will try to attack borderposts and to open them up.

I guess we will see lots of Russian volunteers or nationalists will then start to come across. If they dont quite manage then Putin will send "peacekeepers".

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What Putin is doing is something like “Ok, we all know how you get all this stuff - but you can keep it if you obey certain rules”. May be it is not very free market approach – but unfortunately it seems like Russia could not survive few more decades of “Wild capitalism”. We would just die out. What are other options - de-privatisation?

It's only one rule, really - "You must support Putin."

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They won't make any serious attempt on the islands if Japan and the US wont let them walk on it, not until another 5 or so years when the question needs to be looked at again. A shooting war will hurt them and their economy worse than it would hurt Japan and the US.

 

 

I think what the US is saying in Ukraine is that if the Chinese take stuff by force, they will cut them out of the US global financial system. That will either cause China to conclude using force not appropriate, or to conclude it must create its own global financial system.

 

I know which of those two I would bet China will chose, but I don't know when it will do it.

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What Putin is doing is something like “Ok, we all know how you get all this stuff - but you can keep it if you obey certain rules”. May be it is not very free market approach – but unfortunately it seems like Russia could not survive few more decades of “Wild capitalism”. We would just die out. What are other options - de-privatisation?

It's only one rule, really - "You must support Putin."

 

It is the same as “we will allow you to enjoy benefits of your capital until you obey our orders”. They can’t just “support Putin” but disobey orders.

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I always thought it was the other way round, that police overreact when someone shows up with a toy gun because no one can say for sure just how much of a threat it is.

 

Not during de-facto civil war... And in this events opposing (pro-Ukrainian) side were football fans, so not surprising police pay more attention on them, as their traditional rivals.

 

So, what you're saying then is that the police have chosen sides and chosen to go with the separatists in this case?

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