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As far as capacity - if we (US) wanted to, we could deploy to Ukraine fairly rapidly. 173rd Airborne brigade and 2nd Cavalry Regt are already in Europe. Several BCTs from 101st & 82nd are stateside, and should be readily deployable. We have two BCTs in Kuwait - at least one should be able to move reasonably quickly. And of course Poland has a bunch of military assets within hours of western Ukrainian border. However - all of that is strictly hypothetical. TPTB has made it very clear that no military involvement will take place short of Russian military incursion on NATO member territory.

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PM Harper just confirmed CAF sending soldiers to Poland for ex to support Ukraine. That's pretty good the Army RCN and RCAF are deployed and none of the political parties in Ottawa is saying a thing... even the NDP are in support.

How many soldiers exactly? I don't think anybody right now has the military capability to actually support Ukraine...a few hundred here and there won't make s damn difference.

 

 

50. Putin is not exactly quaking in his boots. This is more about the appearance of deterrence vs reality of deterrence.

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I decided to take a tour of Chernobyl through a travel agency in Ukraine. The radiation levels of the areas we went too were extremely low (the Soviets did a pretty damn good job of decontaminating most of the area) and during the tour we got to see the working nuclear reactors and the new structure being built that would house the destroyed reactor for another hundred years.

A lot of the more active stuff has decayed and/or percolated underground. On the surface it is reasonably safe but personally I would not try the local water/produce for a loooong time.

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PM Harper just confirmed CAF sending soldiers to Poland for ex to support Ukraine. That's pretty good the Army RCN and RCAF are deployed and none of the political parties in Ottawa is saying a thing... even the NDP are in support.

How many soldiers exactly? I don't think anybody right now has the military capability to actually support Ukraine...a few hundred here and there won't make s damn difference.

It's called trip wire diplomacy. They are not there to fight the Russian hordes. They are there to deterre and if attacked they would be the rally call to take us to war. It's old school . We did it in Hong Kong in ww2.

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As far as capacity - if we (US) wanted to, we could deploy to Ukraine fairly rapidly. 173rd Airborne brigade and 2nd Cavalry Regt are already in Europe. Several BCTs from 101st & 82nd are stateside, and should be readily deployable. We have two BCTs in Kuwait - at least one should be able to move reasonably quickly. And of course Poland has a bunch of military assets within hours of western Ukrainian border. However - all of that is strictly hypothetical. TPTB has made it very clear that no military involvement will take place short of Russian military incursion on NATO member territory.

 

That seems mostly like light infantry though...besides the 2nd Cavalry (which is limited to a rather small number of M1 Abrams in Germany), how much heavy armor and artillery can we get into the theater?

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That seems mostly like light infantry though...besides the 2nd Cavalry (which is limited to a rather small number of M1 Abrams in Germany), how much heavy armor and artillery can we get into the theater?

 

 

Polish units are mechanized/armor, so they should be able to provide heavy support.

 

Odessa is burning.

 

38 people die after radicals set Trade Unions House on fire in Ukraine's Odessa

 

Apparently burning political opponents alive is now proper democratic procedure.

 

Any bets on how Kiev government will react? Not that I have any doubts.

 

If you want to play by Marquese of Queensbury rules, you probably should avoid attacking the march of your opponents with guns and bats. It's considered a serious faux pas.

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That seems mostly like light infantry though...besides the 2nd Cavalry (which is limited to a rather small number of M1 Abrams in Germany), how much heavy armor and artillery can we get into the theater?

 

 

Polish units are mechanized/armor, so they should be able to provide heavy support.

 

Odessa is burning.

 

38 people die after radicals set Trade Unions House on fire in Ukraine's Odessa

 

Apparently burning political opponents alive is now proper democratic procedure.

 

Any bets on how Kiev government will react? Not that I have any doubts.

 

If you want to play by Marquese of Queensbury rules, you probably should avoid attacking the march of your opponents with guns and bats. It's considered a serious faux pas.

 

Keep that in mind if the Russians decide to play ball. No need to accuse them of brutality then, its not cricket.

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Keep that in mind if the Russians decide to play ball. No need to accuse them of brutality then, its not cricket.

 

 

Oh, I woudn't think of accusing Russians of brutality. Seems pointless.

Edited by Gregory
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If you want to play by Marquese of Queensbury rules, you probably should avoid attacking the march of your opponents with guns and bats. It's considered a serious faux pas.

There's no reliable information on who attacked whom. Not that it prevents you from assigning blame. Because of course it were several hundred anti-maidan activists who viciously attacked several thousands of maidan radicals.

 

And anyway, don't you know that bats and stones and firearms are perfectly civilized and democratic? Because Maidan used all that and more, and the West claims it's all fine. I would think however that burning people alive is a bit too much across the line, but apparently for you it's not.

Edited by Lav
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There's no reliable information on who attacked whom. Not that it prevents you from assigning blame. Because of course it were several hundred anti-maidan activists who viciously attacked several thousands of maidan radicals.

Fair enough, perhaps we should wait for Putin and Co. to tell us what really happened.

 

And anyway, don't you know that bats and stones and firearms are perfectly civilized and democratic? Because Maidan used all that and more, and the West claims it's all fine. I would think however that burning people alive is a bit too much across the line, but apparently for you it's not.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

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Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

 

I have a feeling before this is over a lot of Ukrainians (from both sides) will find this out the hard way.

Edited by Mistral
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Fair enough, perhaps we should wait for Putin and Co. to tell us what really happened.

Why wait? "Putin and Co." already told you, numerous times, that West is playing a dangerous game which will result in chaos and deaths on Ukraine. It did happen in the Eastern Ukraine, but you blamed Putin for this. Because of course the fault could not lie with the West for pushing it's agenda in Ukraine no matter the means and costs. Now this is starting to happen in other regions too, where it's getting difficult to blame Russian involvement. There were no separatists in Odessa, there were people protesting against government takeover, but nobody was assaulting police and administrative buildings. These people were brutally murdered by regime supporters. But you are still derisive to "Putin and Co." because obviously they are evil and they are at fault for everything.

 

Well, you are welcome to your opinions about Putin's morals, and I'm welcome to my opinions about yours.

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Odessa is burning.

 

38 people die after radicals set Trade Unions House on fire in Ukraine's Odessa

 

Apparently burning political opponents alive is now proper democratic procedure.

 

Any bets on how Kiev government will react? Not that I have any doubts.

 

Maybe they should have thought the line of retreat shooting up the march of their opponents. And given the police that allowed them to do that locals took it in their own hands. Very well deserved.

Edited by yak_v
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Why wait? "Putin and Co." already told you, numerous times, that West is playing a dangerous game which will result in chaos and deaths on Ukraine. It did happen in the Eastern Ukraine, but you blamed Putin for this. Because of course the fault could not lie with the West for pushing it's agenda in Ukraine no matter the means and costs. Now this is starting to happen in other regions too, where it's getting difficult to blame Russian involvement. There were no separatists in Odessa, there were people protesting against government takeover, but nobody was assaulting police and administrative buildings. These people were brutally murdered by regime supporters. But you are still derisive to "Putin and Co." because obviously they are evil and they are at fault for everything.

 

Well, you are welcome to your opinions about Putin's morals, and I'm welcome to my opinions about yours.

 

 

Of course take over of Crimea had nothing to do at all with the current situation in Ukraine... It's all the West's fault...

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Fair enough, perhaps we should wait for Putin and Co. to tell us what really happened.

Why wait? "Putin and Co." already told you, numerous times, that West is playing a dangerous game which will result in chaos and deaths on Ukraine. It did happen in the Eastern Ukraine, but you blamed Putin for this. Because of course the fault could not lie with the West for pushing it's agenda in Ukraine no matter the means and costs. Now this is starting to happen in other regions too, where it's getting difficult to blame Russian involvement. There were no separatists in Odessa, there were people protesting against government takeover, but nobody was assaulting police and administrative buildings. These people were brutally murdered by regime supporters. But you are still derisive to "Putin and Co." because obviously they are evil and they are at fault for everything.

 

Well, you are welcome to your opinions about Putin's morals, and I'm welcome to my opinions about yours.

 

That's right - Putin has very clearly said "If you don't do what I say, I will destroy your country." It's classical bully behavior - they always blame the victim for just not doing what they are told. There were no separatists in Odessa? I guess all those people wearing St. George ribbons and red arm bands were just out shopping. They are local thugs and traitors who support Russian Nazi policies, and I have about as much sympathy for them as I have for German Nazis killed during WW2.

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Speaking of heavy/light forces - majority of what Russians have deployed in the immediate proximity are Airborne/SF forces, backed by some motor rifle formations. Heavier (armored) forces are further out

 

There are some errors here - Ukrain 80th airmobile brigade is actually a Separate Regiment, and Ukrainian National Guard formations are not shown.

Edited by Gregory
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15 off the 38 dead are russian citizens. To their surprise, not all of Ukraine is willing to roll over and jump on command.

Yes, reports say that 15 are Russian citizens, plus additional 5 are citizens of Transdnitria republic - though, it should be noted, that this is still highly unconfirmed. And it's apparently 31 dead, not 38.

Edited by Gregory
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15 off the 38 dead are russian citizens. To their surprise, not all of Ukraine is willing to roll over and jump on command.

Yes, reports say that 15 are Russian citizens, plus additional 5 are citizens of Transdnitria republic - though, it should be noted, that this is still highly unconfirmed. And it's apparently 31 dead, not 38.

What were those people doing there ? Tourism ?

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Yes, reports say that 15 are Russian citizens, plus additional 5 are citizens of Transdnitria republic - though, it should be noted, that this is still highly unconfirmed. And it's apparently 31 dead, not 38.

What were those people doing there ? Tourism ?

 

Information already denied by Odessa police: “No information yet on identity or citizenship of those dead – bodies still to be identified”, “No weapons found in the building”

http://www.unn.com.ua/uk/news/1337991-v-militsiyi-nazivayut-domislami-informatsiyu-pro-nibito-zagiblikh-v-odesi-rosiyan-i-pridnistrovtsiv

 

Video - pro-Ukrainian activists inside burn out building counting bodies and trying to find Russian documents (without success, as it seems). Disturbing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv9_z6Cdf3g#t=11

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This is definitely a very bad escalation of violence... And it will be very hard to contain unless the Ukrainian government takes quickly some serious steps against the radical thugs from both sides. Though it may escalate out of any semblance of control regardless now.

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