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Poland as a German ally would change the game in the east bigtime - not only further east on the jump-off point as you say, but the Axis Powers would have maybe 30 Polish divisions for Barbarossa - I'm guessing that Polish divisions would be high quality in terms of morale. Leningrad and Moscow would practically have to fall.

 

The question to me is how Stalin reacts. Would he go for a non-aggression pact on the assumption that France and Britain could hold Germany in the west, or would he view Germany grabbing all of Poland and getting the Polish army to boot as too much, so that France and the USSR make an alliance? What is the purpose for Germany in an alliance with Poland, if not to attack the Soviet Union?

 

On Hitler's side, assuming that he allies with Poland in early 1939, I assume that all of Eastern Europe would also then rush into the Axis fold. His original plan didn't envision war with the west until later. Would he take several years to continue his military buildup and that of his new satellites, or look to throw his army at France in 1940? The act of acquiring the satellites in Eastern Europe historically opened a breech with the USSR - if Hitler delays, would the friction with the USSR increase and embroil Germany to east before France was dealt with, like happened in 1914?.

 

More like 40 divisions, specifically trained to fight against the Soviets, and definitely motivated. With some German tech (locally produced) and captured Soviet equipment it probably would be a deciding factor in the East.

 

You're wrong about France, it was the primary enemy to be neutralised, Poland had to be first because it was obvious that we would stand up to the alliance and attack Germany in case of their attack on France. There were only two possibilities of who is the German ally in the east, Poland or Russia, and since Poland decided to go with UK and France, the choice was clear. In case of Polish-German alliance, had Stalin decided to make his move, it would be Polish problem, until sufficient German reinforcements could be sent after defeating France.

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More like 40 divisions, specifically trained to fight against the Soviets, and definitely motivated. With some German tech (locally produced) and captured Soviet equipment it probably would be a deciding factor in the East.

 

 

There were clear benefits for Poland of war against SU in cooperation with some Western powers (Germany was not the only option) - and it was, AFAIK, main scenario in Soviet military planning prior to WWII. But what are the benefits for Germany in this case?

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More like 40 divisions, specifically trained to fight against the Soviets, and definitely motivated. With some German tech (locally produced) and captured Soviet equipment it probably would be a deciding factor in the East.

There were clear benefits for Poland of war against SU in cooperation with some Western powers (Germany was not the only option) - and it was, AFAIK, main scenario in Soviet military planning prior to WWII. But what are the benefits for Germany in this case?

 

 

Fighting communism, Lebensraum in the East and all that shit. Benefits of Polish participation is obviuos in military aspect - some 40 divisions more, starting point 250-300 km further to the East etc. And Herr Hilter indeed tried to lure us into the alliance, but we refused by accepting the Franco-British guarantees (that were impossible to fulfill). He felt 'betrayed' and began to really, really hate us after that. ^_^

 

Oh, and virtually all Polish planning before 1939 was about defending from Soviet aggression, we were totally unprepared to fight Germany. Obviously, there were no plans to invade USSR, nobody was that stupid. There were also no plans to fight an aggressive war against Germany, after the French refused Pilsudski's proposal of preventive war in 1934. After that, everything looked like we were going to choose the German camp, up until March 1939 which was a complete and sudden reorientation of Polish politics.

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Fighting communism, Lebensraum in the East and all that shit. Benefits of Polish participation is obviuos in military aspect -

 

"Lebensraum in the East" from German geographic position is, first of all, Poland itself (especially remembering some Poland lands were considered by Hitler to be historically German in fact), and then - Ukraine (which 1930th-Poland would, probably, consider to be historic Poland territory and occupy itself). I do not think Hitler was interested in badlands and permafrost of Northern and Eastern Russia.... So fighting communism in alliance with Poland for Germany seems to be war for Polish interests, not German....

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"Lebensraum in the East" from German geographic position is, first of all, Poland itself (especially remembering some Poland lands were considered by Hitler to be historically German in fact), and then - Ukraine (which 1930th-Poland would, probably, consider to be historic Poland territory and occupy itself). I do not think Hitler was interested in badlands and permafrost of Northern and Eastern Russia.... So fighting communism in alliance with Poland for Germany seems to be war for Polish interests, not German....

 

If Herr Hitler was alive, I'm sure you would be able to explain to him why he was wrong when seeking alliance with Poland before March 1939, but since he's dead...

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.... So fighting communism in alliance with Poland for Germany seems to be war for Polish interests, not German....

 

Ignoring the Anti-Comintern Pact, an anti-communist pact of 1936 between Germany and Japan, with Poland being invited* to be the third signatory. Poland and Britain declined but Italy, Spain, Finland, Hungary, Nationalist China, Romania, Bulgaria, Denmark, and Slovakia all signed up.

 

* Hitler tried to woo Poland twice, the first time in 1935-36 by initiating negotiations with Poland over disputed territory, the second time by supporting Poland's 1938 land grab of Lithuanian and Slovakian territories.

Edited by DKTanker
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At the eleventh hour something changed (USD15bn in cheap as chips loans from Russia might have done it) and he swung the other way.

 

Not to mention the long-term contract over some 50 $bn offered to East-Ukrainian heavy industry by Russian MOD. (Just sayin'...)

 

This. And then we would change sides, There's even a historical (semi)precedent, i.e. WWI. Pilsudski realised that fall of Russia is the primary condition of Poland's restoration and, after that happened, we started fighting Germans when things changed on the Western Front.

 

 

Well, Polish elite always seem to think, in one way or another, that some sort of "downfall" of Russia's is going to magically restore "Rzecz Pospolita od morza do morza". Nothing new here :P

But you do realize that lack of this commitment would mean that Poland is probably going to join Germany and maybe even defeat USSR together? Ok, let's say that there's no attack on Poland, but Hitler just HAD TO defeat France before going east anyway. France is defeated in 1940, so Barbarossa could begin not earlier than in 1941. Maybe in March or April instead of June, and the starting point would be 250-300 km further east.

 

 

 

EDIT: Ok, I see you do, at least about necessity of defeating France.

 

France would at least be able to conduct long-range bombings against the Reich, so Hitler could not just leave them be before starting Barbarossa - but that's assuming France wouldn't just sit on their ass and let Hitler do as long as he left them alone, as seen in 1938...

 

 

But you do realize that lack of this commitment would mean that Poland is probably going to join Germany and maybe even defeat USSR together? Ok, let's say that there's no attack on Poland, but Hitler just HAD TO defeat France before going east anyway. France is defeated in 1940, so Barbarossa could begin not earlier than in 1941. Maybe in March or April instead of June, and the starting point would be 250-300 km further east.

 

EDIT: Ok, I see you do, at least about necessity of defeating France.

 

Poland as a German ally would change the game in the east bigtime - not only further east on the jump-off point as you say, but the Axis Powers would have maybe 30 Polish divisions for Barbarossa - I'm guessing that Polish divisions would be high quality in terms of morale. Leningrad and Moscow would practically have to fall.

 

The question to me is how Stalin reacts. Would he go for a non-aggression pact on the assumption that France and Britain could hold Germany in the west, or would he view Germany grabbing all of Poland and getting the Polish army to boot as too much, so that France and the USSR make an alliance? What is the purpose for Germany in an alliance with Poland, if not to attack the Soviet Union?

 

On Stalin's side of things, you have Czech 1938. When Germans marched in there, Stalin reminded both France and Britain that it is time to stand to obligations (particularly diplomatic help WRT Poland would be appreciated, as Stalin could not just transit troops to Czech through a less-than friendly Poland). We all know what became of that - Appeasement Policy and so on; after that, Stalin had to do all he could to push Russia's border as far West as he could IOT create at least some buffer zone between German troops and Russia - hence the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

So while, yes, Stalind would probably try to ally with France, I see little chance for anything to happen between them. French continue to sit on their ass, Germany does further land grabs.

 

On Hitler's side, assuming that he allies with Poland in early 1939, I assume that all of Eastern Europe would also then rush into the Axis fold. His original plan didn't envision war with the west until later. Would he take several years to continue his military buildup and that of his new satellites, or look to throw his army at France in 1940? The act of acquiring the satellites in Eastern Europe historically opened a breech with the USSR - if Hitler delays, would the friction with the USSR increase and embroil Germany to east before France was dealt with, like happened in 1914?.

 

Huh? Eastern Europe already was in the Axis - Hungary and Romania, most prominently, were controlled by nationalist/(proto)fascist parties; Czech too - not military wise, since they hadn't joined voluntarily, but their heavy industry was of great help for Hitler.

So we can conclude that military buildup of satellites (populated by Untermenschen, anyway) was of little concern to Hitler, whatever the circumstances - he was more than happy to use them just as cannon fodder against Russia.

 

 

Well it is kinda difficult to imagine that Poland would of joined Germany after it was attacked. By that time Stalin and Hitler had already made Molotov-Rippentrop pact and divided Eastern Europe (Poland, Baltics included). In fact Soviet Union attacked Poland from the east while Hitler attacked from the west. Hitler and Stalin were the greatest buddies back then.

 

Gross oversimplification. More like forced into a short-lived alliance out of necessity. On the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, see above.

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Well, Polish elite always seem to think, in one way or another, that some sort of "downfall" of Russia's is going to magically restore "Rzecz Pospolita od morza do morza". Nothing new here :P

 

Except Pilsudski was right, Poland couldn't have been restored if it wasn't for Russia's downfall. There's no 'magic' here, those are facts. There were theoretical conceptions for 'Intermarum' (that died in the early 1920's) but it would be a 'coalition of the willing' independent states ('willing' - endangered by Russian and/or German ambitions in Central Europe), not an attempt to recreate Poland in 17th century borders.. As for today's elites I guess I don't have to explain that no one gives a damn about 'restoring Polish lands' in the East, though Russia is still seen as a destabilising factor in the region.

 

 

France would at least be able to conduct long-range bombings against the Reich, so Hitler could not just leave them be before starting Barbarossa - but that's assuming France wouldn't just sit on their ass and let Hitler do as long as he left them alone, as seen in 1938...

 

He couldn't have been sure about French inaction, apart from that he had to recover the lands taken away by the French after WWI. Securing the continental Europe was a must, neutralistion of UK only an option, that he tried as well.

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He couldn't have been sure about French inaction, apart from that he had to recover the lands taken away by the French after WWI. Securing the continental Europe was a must, neutralistion of UK only an option, that he tried as well.

 

He couldn't be sure, but he could still feel confident that France would sit on their own side of the Rhine much like they did in 1936.

Edited by DKTanker
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Fighting communism, Lebensraum in the East and all that shit. Benefits of Polish participation is obviuos in military aspect -

"Lebensraum in the East" from German geographic position is, first of all, Poland itself (especially remembering some Poland lands were considered by Hitler to be historically German in fact), and then - Ukraine (which 1930th-Poland would, probably, consider to be historic Poland territory and occupy itself). I do not think Hitler was interested in badlands and permafrost of Northern and Eastern Russia.... So fighting communism in alliance with Poland for Germany seems to be war for Polish interests, not German....

 

 

Not necessarily, to Poles. Poland was prepared to gang up on Czechoslovakia with Germany in 1938, & grab Český Těšín. Why not do the same in the Baltic, Belorussia & Ukraine?

 

I doubt the Poles in the 1930s appreciated the magnitude of Nazi ambitions, or the methods the Nazis were willing to use to achieve them. It would have seemed credible to them that the Germans could be negotiated with, & compromises made. They didn't have the hindsight we have.

Edited by swerve
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So it's me again, this time reporting live from Kiev!!! So the first girl picked me up from the airport...she was batshit crazy. Within an hour of me meeting her, she was already accussing me of being unfaithful to her...how so? Because apparently I was logged on to the website when I told her I was gonna go and sleep in the hotel (even though I logged on to check my email...) Yeah, totally done with her. The second girl who lives in Odessa pretty much started sending me near nude photos of herself begging me to come visit her..so she too was blocked.

 

Anyways, with no girls to worry about, I decided to call up my friend (who I also met on the dating site, but we decided to remain friends...of course I needed one if I'm going to navigate my way throughout this city). So me, her, and a friend of hers decide to head to a bar not too far away from the city center. Afterwards we spent much of the night up until five in the morning at a local club (seriously...Eastern Europeans know how to party...) and then I went to bed. Getting up around 3 PM, I decided it was time to do some exploring of Kiev, and my friend said she'd be happy to guide me.

 

My friend currently works for the Ukrainian government as I mentioned before. She finally had her say about the revolution...she absolutely hated it. She said yes, the former government was quite corrupt, but this new one is just as corrupt, with the exception that now the economy is much worse than it was before and the Russians reclaimed Crimea. She said after the revolution, many people she personally worked with who were sincere, intelligent individuals simply left their posts. She views the new government not necessarily as fascists, but as corrupt individuals who's actions will tear apart Ukraine. Unfortunately she may be right....

 

I did get to check out Independence Square (all the barricades, tents, etc. are still up) and I gotta admit...it was quite a scene! I never saw anything like it before.

Edited by crazyinsane105
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I did get to check out Independence Square (all the barricades, tents, etc. are still up) and I gotta admit...it was quite a scene! I never saw anything like it before.

 

Well, there's your hard currency earner - protest tourism.

 

I just like how this thread involves lots and lots of pages on how eeeeeeeeeeeevuhl Russia/Putin is, or how saintly Russia/Putin is, and then here's crazyinsane's posts on Eastern European women.... BTW, your post is useless without the near-nude pix of the second woman. :P ;)

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But sometimes there are some crazy flags like this “Donbass Russian Run” flag on Elbrus mountain, showing runner with Russian imperial flag, now commonly used by Russian nationalists

 

I like this effective sort of propaganda, please continue :D

 

More Putin propaganda for you - Crimean girls trolling Ukrainian bloggers http://gmichailov.livejournal.com/599210.html

 

 

 

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Meanwhile Kharkiv city mayor Gennady Kernes injured by unknown gunman and is in critical condition. This guy was known to change sides more than once (siding withYanukovich, Maidan and anti-Maidan) so it is not clear who is responsible for this shooting.

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Love the BSA optic on the weapon in the pic. BSA is cheap.

 

Still made in Britain too, which is nice.

 

The guns maybe, the optics not.

 

 

Not even all of the guns - my current model BSA Meteor is a Gamo, made in Spain.

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