Yama Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Huba said: Just to clarify, I didn't mean a real time as in constant observation, I meant real time info of situation as the satellite flies over the area, basically a map refresh. Regarding the field of view - the mentioned SAR-Lupe is not a naval recce satellite, the resolution it gives is hardly needed for that application and I imagine dropping it would improve the range quite a bit. I took a look at what is officially know regarding US space radar satellites, but there unsurprisingly isn't much, at least at first glance. I'll dig a bit more and probably get back to the topic. Now for the power part, that's actually something to really consider, but could you maybe point me to the source re- the power levels? I checked and RORSATs were supposed to only have a few KW of available power, something that you'd need only a few m2 of modern solar cells for. I understood what you meant, but 'map refresh' would happen only once per day, unless you have many satellites. I suppose one could parse together a more comprehensive picture if you had a software with have access to many satellite constellations. I would not be surprised if something like that exists already. If you look at the aforementioned SAR-Lupe, it has power supply of only few hundred watts. Also, RORSATs flew at relatively low altitude, and large panels would have dragged it out of orbit very quickly. Another requirement was the ability to work at Earth's shadow: otherwise the satellite would be useless half of the time. I do not believe modern analogue to RORSATs exists, due to complications mentioned above. Even Soviets did not see the system as a complete success. Russia has Liana/Pion program which is an ELINT constellation with supposedly active radar component, a sort of successor for the US-A, but I am not familiar with details. edit. Russian Space Web has quite a bit of info on RORSATs. http://www.russianspaceweb.com/us.html Edited May 11, 2022 by Yama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yama Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 52 minutes ago, alejandro_ said: Yesterday Odessa authorities announced a strike by 'hypersonic' missiles, which I suppose could refer to these. I'm surprised it took this long to dust them off, if they are indeed the first attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 10 minutes ago, Yama said: I understood what you meant, but 'map refresh' would happen only once per day, unless you have many satellites. I suppose one could parse together a more comprehensive picture if you had a software with have access to many satellite constellations. I would not be surprised if something like that exists already. If you look at the aforementioned SAR-Lupe, it has power supply of only few hundred watts. Also, RORSATs flew at relatively low altitude, and large panels would have dragged it out of orbit very quickly. Another requirement was the ability to work at Earth's shadow: otherwise the satellite would be useless half of the time. I do not believe modern analogue to RORSATs exists, due to complications mentioned above. Even Soviets did not see the system as a complete success. Russia has Liana/Pion program which is an ELINT constellation with supposedly active radar component, a sort of successor for the US-A, but I am not familiar with details. edit. Russian Space Web has quite a bit of info on RORSATs. http://www.russianspaceweb.com/us.html The US Army is experimenting with AI to rapidly ID targets from commercial satellites as part of their yearly "Project Convergence" exercise. They want to be able to ID targets in near real time with one AI and then have another AI prioritize and assign artillery assets to engage those targets. Ultimately this is intended to enable the Long Range Precision Fires programs. RORSATS were singularly unique in using nuclear reactors, unlike (I believe) any radar satellite since. At the time battery storage was far more limited than now. I'm also guessing that the solar cells are probably still incapable of providing constant power on their own and that such satellites have to only illuminate in specific areas of interest after building up a battery charge. RORSATs would have an advantage there, but at the consequence of leaving dead nuclear reactors in graveyard orbits or worse, Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 14 minutes ago, Yama said: Yesterday Odessa authorities announced a strike by 'hypersonic' missiles, which I suppose could refer to these. I'm surprised it took this long to dust them off, if they are indeed the first attacks. Not technically hypersonic, at least not until the terminal dive. But I could easily see some official describing them as such in error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yama Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 19 minutes ago, Josh said: The US Army is experimenting with AI to rapidly ID targets from commercial satellites as part of their yearly "Project Convergence" exercise. They want to be able to ID targets in near real time with one AI and then have another AI prioritize and assign artillery assets to engage those targets. Ultimately this is intended to enable the Long Range Precision Fires programs. Use of AI in filtering the intelligence from multiple sources and putting the picture together might be next big revolution in warfare...or it might be a gigantic flop We'll see. 19 minutes ago, Josh said: RORSATS were singularly unique in using nuclear reactors, unlike (I believe) any radar satellite since. At the time battery storage was far more limited than now. I'm also guessing that the solar cells are probably still incapable of providing constant power on their own and that such satellites have to only illuminate in specific areas of interest after building up a battery charge. RORSATs would have an advantage there, but at the consequence of leaving dead nuclear reactors in graveyard orbits or worse, Canada. They are pretty much unique in having actual nuclear reactors (in stead of just RTG's). According to Wiki, USA had one orbital nuclear reactor prototype. I suppose US-A was an idea which was somewhat ahead of its time, and pushed the limits of available technology bit too far. Particularly, the idea of not only using nuclear reactors on orbit, but 'disposing' them so that they will drop down just a few hundred years later is appalling even by the Cold War standards, and some future generation will be probably slightly miffed about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 I believe the US example was SNAP, and I believe at least one also re-entered although I think it completely burned up in the upper atmosphere (SNAP-9?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huba Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Yama said: I understood what you meant, but 'map refresh' would happen only once per day, unless you have many satellites. I suppose one could parse together a more comprehensive picture if you had a software with have access to many satellite constellations. I would not be surprised if something like that exists already. If you look at the aforementioned SAR-Lupe, it has power supply of only few hundred watts. Also, RORSATs flew at relatively low altitude, and large panels would have dragged it out of orbit very quickly. Another requirement was the ability to work at Earth's shadow: otherwise the satellite would be useless half of the time. I do not believe modern analogue to RORSATs exists, due to complications mentioned above. Even Soviets did not see the system as a complete success. Russia has Liana/Pion program which is an ELINT constellation with supposedly active radar component, a sort of successor for the US-A, but I am not familiar with details. So I kept digging (cause who needs to work, right?), and here's some data I managed to find: The Sentinel-1 satellite, the one that made the image I linked, has maritime surveillance mode with swath width of 250 up to 400 km. Compared to this SAR-Lupe it's a huge machine, and has 5900 W of solar cells and a battery - so temporary available power might be quite bigger. This of course is just a weather satellite, and one of constellation of only 2, but showcases the technical possibilities. Now I came across article by Max Polyakow, the head of this analytics company that set off to support Ukraine ( it was reported in media sometimes in March), that states that there are currently 50 commercial (!) SAR satellites overflying Ukraine. If we extrapolate from the Sentinel satellite that takes 6 days to repeat it's orbit (so in this case to fly over northeastern Black Sea), there is 8 satellites over there daily. Even if we were to half this number (due to different capabilities or those, etc.) there's still a SAR satellite there every 6 hours. Now for military space based radars, there was a actually a number of programs after US-A, for example american Lacrosse from late '80s. There's no info on present program, but the actual purpose of most of the US military satellites is not clear, and with 500 in orbit there' certainly room for those. We are guessing here though. As you mentioned, to make use of this data you'd need some pretty cutting edge automated ISR capability. It is a safe bet that such software exist in US. I misplaced the link, but there was some article that Space Force was to provide space based SAR capability to other armed forces based using data from commercial satellites. Edit: I only now saw the rest of discussion of AI. Obvious thing to mention here is how easy it is to do in naval warfare as compared to land. With the satellites in place, after a moment you'd have pre-registered radar signatures for each and every warship in the world. Edited May 11, 2022 by Huba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yama Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 18 minutes ago, Huba said: Now I came across article by Max Polyakow, the head of this analytics company that set off to support Ukraine ( it was reported in media sometimes in March), that states that there are currently 50 commercial (!) SAR satellites overflying Ukraine. The original source says 50 satellites, without specifying a type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huba Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 2 minutes ago, Yama said: The original source says 50 satellites, without specifying a type. True, but the whole quote pertains to radar images. Unfortunately Wired does not provide sources. Anyway, I keep digging on the military SAR satellites and found a nice page by some space nerd(s) with data for Lacrosse. Compared to RORSATs it's really impressive: According to observers, the distinguishing features of the design of the Onyx satellite include a very large radar antenna, and solar panels to provide electrical power for the radar transmitter. Reportedly, the solar arrays have a wingspan of almost 45 meters, which suggests that the power available to the radar could be in the range of 10 to 20 kilowatts, as much as ten times greater than that of any previously flown space-based radar. Onyx satellites are deployed in two different orbital inclinations, 57° and 68° of around 650 km height, but the satellites occasionally manoeuvre to different heights. There's also some info about the Topaz program that superseded the Onyx/ Lacrosse. No data on the birds themselves, apart that they orbit at over 1000 km compared to 650. Hardly possible that we'll ever learn about the specific capabilities those provide, but just the altitude at which those operate suggest that coverage is enormous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 After hearing of a few more villages being captured today, here's an update of the northern Donbass sector from the pro-Russian Rybar channel: Attack on Donbass from the north: the situation by 17:00 on May 11, 2022 After breaking through the defenses in the Belogorovka area, the Ukrainian command is looking for ways to contain the advance of the Russian Armed Forces in the Limansky and Soledarsky directions. ▪️In Novoselovka , according to local residents, units of the RF Armed Forces entered. Fighting resumed in Shandrigolovo . From the outskirts of Liman , active artillery fire is being conducted on the positions of the allied forces. To the south of Yampol , the defense of the units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine was broken through: forests and fields around Ozerny were occupied . ▪️There are unconfirmed reports of a breakthrough in the enemy's defenses from the side of Popasnaya after an attack on the command and observation post of the 24th Ombre of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the vicinity of the settlement. Part of the Ukrainian forces retreated in the direction of Loskutovka . ▪️The Armed Forces of Ukraine are strengthening near Gorsky , waiting for the breakthrough of defensive lines near Orekhovo from Novoshtokovsky . ▪️The operation of several radar stations was recorded at the front. In Katerinovka , the AN / TPQ-36 Firefinder counter-battery radar is located, in the area north of Avdiivka , the AN / TPQ-50 LCMR radar. In New York AN / TPQ-36, and in Toretsk AN / TPQ-48. ▪️A partial rotation of units in this area was carried out by forces of 102 from Ivano-Frankivsk and 103 territorial defense brigades from Rivne regions. However, the situation is complicated by the fact that several dozen mobilized servicemen of the 103rd Terodefense Brigade refused to perform tasks due to lack of experience and the necessary equipment. In Popasna, prisoners were taken from units of the Lviv Territorial Defense. The total irreplaceable losses in 101 territorial defense brigades exceeded 600 people . ▪️The most combat-ready units of the 54th and 110th Ombre suffer heavy losses near Kurakhovo , Kamenka , and Novobakhmutovka . To complete the brigades, there is a forced mobilization of citizens from nearby regions of Ukraine. At the same time, preparation for dispatch takes no more than one week due to the urgent need for manpower. Moreover, due to the constant missile strikes and the activities of the aviation of the Russian Aerospace Forces, the number of irretrievable losses is growing. At present, the transfer of combat units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine with equipment from other regions to this direction is being considered. ▪️Organized the supply of weapons and ammunition to the front lines. Over the past two days , trains with ammunition and diesel fuel arrived at the Udachnoye station. Unloading was carried out at night. Regrouping of forces in the Izyum direction ▪️Due to the difficult situation of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Donbass , it was decided to redirect part of the forces of the 14th brigade involved in the area of the Seversky Donets River . ▪️At night, by rail, an unspecified number of people and equipment of the brigade will be transferred to the Soledar direction to strengthen the group of troops. ▪️In the area of Zavgorodny , several units of the 14th brigade will remain, which will come under the command of the 4th brigade, reinforced by 10 additional tanks and 300 military personnel of the territorial defense . ▪️Probably, the plan of attack on the flank of the forces of the RF Armed Forces near Izyum will also be adjusted. The option of a simultaneous offensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the direction of Cossack Lopan near the border with the Russian Federation and units of the Izyum direction on Rudnevo and Ivanovka is being worked out . ▪️Compulsorily mobilized citizens are expected to arrive from the Sumy region and the northern regions of the Kharkiv region to build up an offensive grouping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn239 Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 9 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said: It seems that most Western European states want to soft pedal on military assistance, sanctions and even rhetoric about the removal of Putin, whereas most of the East Europeans who seem themselves next on the shopping list, are a lot more bullish about support, and perhaps even see removing Putin to solve the problem. Which begs the question, is there a split coming? Could we see the Eastern Europeans form into some kind of 'Polish Lithuanian Defence Union'? Might make it rather harder for NATO nations to control the emerging situation. I agree with this. Before the war I said that I felt if Russia invaded the Sino-Russian alliance would emerge stronger and NATO would come out weaker. Now, the issue is obviously in doubt and NATO might still come out the winner, but these fault lines are real and like Covid, the populations of the West only have so much patience for big causes that are painful, (in this case to the wallet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahawk Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 After breaking through the defenses in the Belogorovka area, the Ukrainian command is looking for ways to contain the advance of the Russian Armed Forces in the Limansky and Soledarsky directions. This is the new main push and spells doom for the pro-Western forces in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaymoreCA Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 8 minutes ago, seahawk said: After breaking through the defenses in the Belogorovka area, the Ukrainian command is looking for ways to contain the advance of the Russian Armed Forces in the Limansky and Soledarsky directions. This is the new main push and spells doom for the pro-Western forces in the area. /s In keeping with the spirit of Seahawk's satire account status and the Rhybar posting, I present the pixs of the Ru forces storming across the open landscape, driving the Uk forces before them /s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaymoreCA Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 /s Darn it ... wrong pictures ... I mean these pictures of the victorious Ru heroes breaking through the Ukr rabble /s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaymoreCA Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 /s On the ground and in the sky, the Ru forces are victorious! Their defeat at Serpent Island bring their total aircraft losses to more than 300% of their airforce! /s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn239 Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 11 minutes ago, ClaymoreCA said: /s In keeping with the spirit of Seahawk's satire account status and the Rhybar posting, I present the pixs of the Ru forces storming across the open landscape, driving the Uk forces before them /s Did the Russians claim they were driving the Ukrainians back towards Kharkiv? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyinsane105 Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 3 minutes ago, JWB said: Regarding this post about dumps of bodies that have thousands of dead... Will have to call bs on that. Something like this can very easily be detected by satellites, there's no way in hell anyone can hide that. We found mass graves of far fewer individuals in other parts of Ukraine, and the world (Covid mass graves), but for this, just an 'intercepted' call? No photos from the sky? Pretty sure there were a few dozen bodies piled up on top of one another, and caller exaggerates the hell out of it and says THOUSANDS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaymoreCA Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 Major General Igor Konashenkov pronounces "This adventure is over..." Who's adventure is that again? Smells like a lurking repeat of Chornobaivka to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 31 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said: Regarding this post about dumps of bodies that have thousands of dead... Will have to call bs on that. Something like this can very easily be detected by satellites, there's no way in hell anyone can hide that. We found mass graves of far fewer individuals in other parts of Ukraine, and the world (Covid mass graves), but for this, just an 'intercepted' call? No photos from the sky? Pretty sure there were a few dozen bodies piled up on top of one another, and caller exaggerates the hell out of it and says THOUSANDS. There is an alternative way to look at it, who has been looking for something like that? Relatively easy to find freshly turned over ground. Depending on whether it has a camouflage net over it, it might resemble any kind of supply dump. I'm not credulous, but I ask myself, who would make something like that up? It's so off the wall, I believe it. Try hundreds, I'll buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyinsane105 Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 3 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said: There is an alternative way to look at it, who has been looking for something like that? Relatively easy to find freshly turned over ground. Depending on whether it has a camouflage net over it, it might resemble any kind of supply dump. I'm not credulous, but I ask myself, who would make something like that up? It's so off the wall, I believe it. Try hundreds, I'll buy it. Even a few hundred bodies isn’t easy to hide. We’d have satellite photos at this point, like we did for the mass graves in Bucha, Mariupol, etc. Mass graves just aren’t something folks can hide anymore, especially in Eastern Ukraine where you have god knows how many satellites going over the area. Absolutely no verification from the US or any Western country either. Just some news outlets taking the word of this recording and thinking it’s true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaymoreCA Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 (edited) I understand the importance of propaganda during wartime special operation time. But just at whom are the Ru MoD aiming this дурь несусветная? The Mom and Pop Ru public are not downloading this stuff and studiously investigating the "twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence". Certainly not the younger more educated Ru crowd. They are more apathetically involved with themselves or avoiding being conspicuously critical of the government. Certainly not the western media. I mean .... come on. Like the shambolic mess that is the Ru military offensive, I'm left with believing that this kind of material is being created by an untargetted and unfocussed bureaucracy that mindless pumps out this фигня as evidence of their non-functional government. Don't get me wrong. That government is expert in some things. It has done a phenomenal job since 2016 of reinforcing the lesson to the general populus that they should not get involved in government decisions....otherwise you're going to get a boot up the arse. An since Feb.24 they've done a phenomenal job in transforming Ru into NK. If that report is anywhere close to true, then after recognition that the most mobile are usually the most educated and most ambitious, then is a looming turd-bomb for any attempts at Ru to climb out of this mess. Edited May 11, 2022 by ClaymoreCA [edited to remove superfluous pictures] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 56 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said: Regarding this post about dumps of bodies that have thousands of dead... Will have to call bs on that. Something like this can very easily be detected by satellites, there's no way in hell anyone can hide that. We found mass graves of far fewer individuals in other parts of Ukraine, and the world (Covid mass graves), but for this, just an 'intercepted' call? No photos from the sky? Pretty sure there were a few dozen bodies piled up on top of one another, and caller exaggerates the hell out of it and says THOUSANDS. Agree. It's not a thing that could be hidden. Even if it were in a warehouse with overhead cover, I'd think the smell would be...distinct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angrybk Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 26 minutes ago, ClaymoreCA said: I understand the importance of propaganda during wartime special operation time. But just at whom are the Ru MoD aiming this дурь несусветная? The Mom and Pop Ru public are not downloading this stuff and studiously investigating the "twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence". Certainly not the younger more educated Ru crowd. They are more apathetically involved with themselves or avoiding being conspicuously critical of the government. Certainly not the western media. I mean .... come on. Like the shambolic mess that is the Ru military offensive, I'm left with believing that this kind of material is being created by an untargetted and unfocussed bureaucracy that mindless pumps out this фигня as evidence of their non-functional government. Don't get me wrong. That government is expert in some things. It has done a phenomenal job since 2016 of reinforcing the lesson to the general populus that they should not get involved in government decisions....otherwise you're going to get a boot up the arse. An since Feb.24 they've done a phenomenal job in transforming Ru into NK. If that report is anywhere close to true, then after recognition that the most mobile are usually the most educated and most ambitious, then is a looming turd-bomb for any attempts at Ru to climb out of this mess. Re your last paragraph, Russian diaspora has been going on for a long ass time and has been very beneficial for the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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