Kiev Is Burning

[Stuart Galbraith]

Well the English definition of Election is voting for someone to fill an office. Nobody said that it had to be a fair or free vote for it to be an election.🙂

[sunday]

Does anyone think that the neoconservatives currently in power in USA are representative of Classical Liberalism?

Edited January 21, 2022 by sunday

[Stefan Kotsch]

Quote

At the sessions of the Supreme Soviet, delegates held speeches, voted and discussed current matters. However, it was all staged, no real discussions took place, and all decisions were taken unanimously. So we can call the Supreme Soviet a pseudo-parliament – in reality, all important state decisions were made by the Politburo (the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union), i.e. by the heads of the Communist Party, under the leadership of the General Secretary, who was in fact the head of the state.

Source Russia Beyond (engl): https://www.rbth.com/history/334026-complete-history-of-russian-parliament

Quote

Even if someone didn't like voting for pre-determined candidates who had no competition, peer pressure kept them voting.
'For example, my father didn't like the polls very much, but he went to the polls anyway,' recalls Bobrow.
There was no opposition in the USSR. The Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU) was the only legitimate political force in the country. All citizens were expected to support them, and any opposition to the party line was taken as a sign of distrust and resistance.

Source Russia Beyond (germany): https://de.rbth.com/geschichte/84369-wahlen-sowjetunion

 

"Any opposition to the party line was taken as a sign of distrust and resistance." Thanks to Putin's version of democracy, it's that way again.

________

Russia Beyond ...  is a Russian multilingual project operated by the autonomous nonprofit organization TV-Novosti, founded by the Russian state news agency Ria Novosti.

Source

Edited January 21, 2022 by Stefan Kotsch

[TonyE]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Well the English definition of Election is voting for someone to fill an office. Nobody said that it had to be a fair or free vote for it to be an election.🙂

[drool] I pine for the age and era of the rotten boroughs [/drool]🤤🤤

[KV7]

4 hours ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

Are we talking about two completely different views of the term democracy?  😵

I don't think so. He wanted to create a mechanism to allow the people to hold local officials to account, which didn't already exist in a functional form. Accepting the need for this is just common sense, and by the late 1920's was apparent because there already were a bunch of useless functionaries resting on their laurels, partially as a result of 'good revolutionary =/ good administrator' and then even later 'party hack =/ good administrator'.

On the issue of 'what if people vote the wrong way' - Stalin thought the CP was generally popular but that occasional losses would be a good thing because it would keep the local party on their toes.

here is Molotov:

 

Quote

This system . . . cannot but strike against those who have become
bureaucratized, alienated from the masses. . . . will facilitate the promotion
of new forces . . . that must come forth to replace backward or
bureaucratized [ochinovnivshimsya] elements. Under the new form of
elections the election of enemy elements is possible. But even this danger,
in the last analysis, must serve to help us, insofar as it will serve as a lash
to those organizations that need it, and to [Party] workers who have fallen
asleep. (Zhukov, "Repressii" 15).

And here is Stalin:
 

Quote

Some say that this is dangerous, since elements hostile to Soviet power
could sneak into the highest offices, some of the former White Guardists,
kulaks, priests, and so on. But really, what is there to fear? 'If you're afraid
of wolves, don't walk in the forest.' For one thing, not all former kulaks,
White Guardists, and priests are hostile to Soviet power. For another, if
the people here and there elected hostile forces, this will mean that our
agitational work is poorly organized, and that we have fully deserved this
disgrace. (Zhukov, Inoy 293; Stalin, "Draft").

 

[Stefan Kotsch]

Is that satire?

[Perun]

3 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Germany in 1933 was not quite the developed Democracy the US or Britain and France were. You dont need Democracy to explain bestiality. Soviet troopers were quite as enthusiastic as the Nazi's you describe when they got to Berlin, and they never had any kind of Democratic backing for their actions.

You never pass up any opportunity to pretend Russia is just like anywhere else do you? Russia is very special, I agree, perhaps we should leave it at that.

You cant compare wehrmacht and red army in no way and in no circumstances. Wehrmacht were bunch of cold bloded butchers

[sunday]

16 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

Is that satire?

Stalinism at face value.

We need a died-in-the-wool Nazi to keep him entertained.

[futon]

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Just now, Perun said:

You cant compare wehrmacht and red army in no way and in no circumstances. Wehrmacht were bunch of cold bloded butchers

Let me tell you a story. My Grandfather was a POW of the Germans, held in Poland up to late 1944 doing far work. One day they were told they had to march back to Germany, like right now. Abandon all your posessions and just go. They asked the Germans why, they were told the Russians were coming. As a child I asked him, why didnt you hide? Why, when you were working on he farms, didnt you run east to the Soviets? It was fairly straightforward he said, nobody wanted to be captured by the Soviets. And with good reason. There are still RAF Radar personnel whom escaped from those camps whom are believed to have fallen into Soviet hands. Nobody ever saw them again. We can only speculate about what happened to them.

We owe a debt to the Soviet Soldiers for gutting the Wehrmact, and I have utmost respect for all of them. But dont mistake the Army made up of a bunch of pretty extraordinary fellows for the regime that directed them. That was just as empty, bankrupt and murderous as the Nazi's. They proved that in Finland, Georgia, Poland and the Baltic states.

 

40 minutes ago, TonyE said:

[drool] I pine for the age and era of the rotten boroughs [/drool]🤤🤤

Well wait around, im sure Bojo will bring them back.

 

[ex2cav]

14 hours ago, glenn239 said:

I said 8 years ago, and to this day, that NATO should not expand to Ukraine because NATO would not defend Ukraine and the country would be torn apart between east and west.  The best thing we could do would be to put up the NATO border stakes and let Kiev work it out with Moscow.    

My rejection of your ideas about a tough stand are based on the simple conclusion that I did not and do not think Russia can be deterred.  Your ideas are a surefire path to war and I think you know it.

And, I wanted Trump to win, not Biden.

 

Glenn, the war is not on you. In the real world it is on the politicals that run the systems. This is just a place to exchange ideas, rant, and sit around like guys at a bar. 

Again, no one one threw Ukraine under the bus. They are not part of nato, and there is no obligation to protect them----they were and are a political and economic basket case that would be a drain on nato and make the alliance weaker. 

With that, I do feel for the people of Ukraine, who will have a war foisted on them by vested interests. There is talk of arming ukrainians and already of beginning a resistance. If that happens, they will turn ukraine into an iraq or afghanistan or yemen. Take your pick. The powers that be have no qualms turning them into that. That should tell you something. 

[ex2cav]

2 hours ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

Is that satire?

I haven't been tracking this. Are we talking about STALIN reforming the USSR? I believe in common history today, he was ramping up another purge. Right before his death, didn't he lock and kill a bunch of doctors?

[Stuart Galbraith]

In actual Ukraine would be the largest European Army in NATO in terms of manpower. With them and Poland, there would be absolutely no reason to fear a Russian attack on Europe. That is before you throw Germany and France on the top of the pile.

I don't get you guys, you  repeat the line Europe doesn't do enough to defend itself, then a European state that has successfully stood up to Russian pressure for 7 years asks to join NATO, and you deprecate it based on what appears little more than Russian agitprop and claim it's a drain on resources.

Don't owe Ukraine? They are a Democracy. After the  fucked up effort to export Democracy to the middle east for 20 years, here by contrast is one that wants to be one, and you put it in the too difficult pile. And yes, you do owe them. Do a search for The Budapest Memorandum. You have already guaranteed its borders.

If you throw Ukraine under the bus, there will be others, just as this is the result from the supposedly easy option of leaving Afghanistan. Don't want a war over Taiwan? Face up to Russia. Nothing NATO has not done before.

[Stuart Galbraith]

And for anyone under the distant illusion appeasement works, this is the madness now airing on Russian TV.

 

[Roman Alymov]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Let me tell you a story. My Grandfather was a POW of the Germans, held in Poland up to late 1944 doing far work. One day they were told they had to march back to Germany, like right now. Abandon all your posessions and just go. They asked the Germans why, they were told the Russians were coming. As a child I asked him, why didnt you hide? Why, when you were working on he farms, didnt you run east to the Soviets? It was fairly straightforward he said, nobody wanted to be captured by the Soviets. And with good reason. There are still RAF Radar personnel whom escaped from those camps whom are believed to have fallen into Soviet hands. Nobody ever saw them again. We can only speculate about what happened to them.

That is nice story, let’s look at it closer:

1)      Your Grandfather and his comrades newer actually came to contact with Soviets. All they know about them was told to them by Germans who were guarding them, i.e. cam guards. Is it surprising that this guards were of very little desire to meet Soviets face to face, after what this guards were doing to both Soviet POWs and civilians for years?   Note that timing is “late 1944”, time of rapid advance of Red Army so nobody was able to leave territories already liberated by Red Army and run ahead of mechanized columns to spread the world of what is happening there. So their actions are based on their personal expectations and German propaganda.

2)      Isn’t it clear that Western POWs were very important for this camp guards, as they were both their ticket into so much desired Allied POW status and shield in case of being intercepted by Red Army. So it was very important to this guards to convince your Grandfather and his comrades to go with them, voluntarily and as fast as possible  - not to shot them on the place, like it was often done with Soviet POWs in similar situations.

So the story of your Grandfather  is actually not about terrible Soviets, but about his German guards and German propaganda.  And actually it is very much in line with Soviet accounts of this time – they were surprised to see completely empty towns with intact houses, and corpses of German refugees who froze to death on roads trying to outrun Soviet offensive.

Re “l RAF Radar personnel whom escaped from those camps whom are believed to have fallen into Soviet hands” – it is “may be” story (equally possible is they just fell victims of numerous misfortunes of war). Below is real story of real person who was not afraid of Soviets (may be because he not followed his German guards but run away from them).

https://roughdiplomacy.com/you-and-what-army-joseph-r-beyrle/

By the way what Georgia you mean – one the homeland of Stalin?

[glenn239]

8 hours ago, Josh said:

You do realize that Trump was the first US President to provide Ukraine with weapons, right?

Trump's agenda was never NATO expansion.   

[glenn239]

4 hours ago, sunday said:

Does anyone think that the neoconservatives currently in power in USA are representative of Classical Liberalism?

Maybe in the same way that Robespierre was a progressive?  

[glenn239]

54 minutes ago, ex2cav said:

Glenn, the war is not on you. In the real world it is on the politicals that run the systems. This is just a place to exchange ideas, rant, and sit around like guys at a bar. 

Some posters around here have wanted NATO to push in Ukraine for a decade now.  My conclusion then was that this would be a disaster for Ukraine - it would blow up in our faces and Ukraine would be left hung out to dry.   This is what is happening, and it's no surprise.  

Quote

Again, no one one threw Ukraine under the bus. They are not part of nato, and there is no obligation to protect them----they were and are a political and economic basket case that would be a drain on nato and make the alliance weaker. 

Ukraine's oligarchs fed money into the Western political system through the back door to buy an American military support for war with Russia.  Wasn't going to work and shouldn't have been done.  Had these clueless twats tolerated Donbass and signed a contract for Russian SU-35's and nuclear power plants, Putin would have been happy.  Once Putin was gone, maybe the next Russian Tzar wouldn't be such a hardass.  

Quote

With that, I do feel for the people of Ukraine, who will have a war foisted on them by vested interests. There is talk of arming ukrainians and already of beginning a resistance. If that happens, they will turn ukraine into an iraq or afghanistan or yemen. Take your pick. The powers that be have no qualms turning them into that. That should tell you something. 

All the Westerners crying crocodile tears for Ukraine will be the first in line to sanction the living shit out of the Ukrainian people for the crime of being misled by the West and conquered.   They cried to the heavens for years about the poor Syrian people, then piled on the sanctions when their talking chattel committed the crime of losing the Syrian civil war.

[Roman Alymov]

On 1/19/2022 at 3:34 PM, mandeb48 said:

They are quite reasonable scenarios: Some questions to discuss that will not have a definitive answer: H

 How is the Donbass militias preparing, are they receiving new "donations"? – nothing about any new donations of heavy weapons (usually pro-Ukrainians know about them and create outcry in their media, but now they are happy celebrating new toys from UK and do not report any new weapons in Donbass). Mood about pro-Russians is mostly “We know it will be our last stand, let’s make enemy pay the price as high as possible – and hope Russia would avenge us”. After 7 years of trench war against superior enemy, it is hard to be cheerful optimist

What is the atmosphere among normal people in that area? – it is complex question. Last year new program of economic recovery was initiated by new curator of regional economy, with plans to bring average income up to the level of Rostov Oblast (Rus region across the border). If successful, it will make the region the most prosperous among other regions of Ukraine, except mey be capital Kiev. But it is plans, so let’s wait and see. At least salaries are now paid, Russian citizenship provide many locals with unrestricted access to Rus job market etc. – so the mood is not so bad as it was two years ago/

How is the Ukrainian army preparing? – They are massing troops near contact line with Donbass (but not along Russian border as it seems logical if they really believe in inevitable Rus attack).

is there a spirit of revenge?  - They had it even before the war, as relations between East and West of Ukraine are traditionally uneasy.

How much has it improved since 2014?  - It is complex question. They are now way more experienced, trained by NATO advisors, got some new communication equipment and new toys like Javelins, sniper rifles etc. But at the same time they are now lower on light armor, their tanks, vehicles and artillery –in other words, Soviet legacy - are now worn out.

 Do they believe that Russia will directly intervene to save Donbass? – they will only attack if they believe Russia would not intervene. But they may be wrong (or may be fed with disinformation by Western politicians like it was in 2008 with Saakashvilli of Georgia)

How is the atmosphere among ordinary people in the rest of Ukraine? – Far from enthusiastic, Zelensky lost his popularity, while Poroshenko have not gained any back….

How is the atmosphere among ordinary people in the rest of Russia. – People are mostly worried by covid and economy. Media is trying to keep them informed on recent developments, but we are consumer society now so not clear how successful this campaign is.

 How much are they willing to sacrifice to help the donbass? – Not known, it is a big IF, since our official line for years since 2014 was “Donbass will go back to Ukraine under Minsk agreements”.

 Could Putin survive politically if Russia does not intervene and the Ukrainian army suppresses the Donbass republics? – I do not think he would be able to manage this level of political trick.

In case of conflict escalate. Can the Russian economy survive without gas supplies to Europe?  - Yes, but it will be another structure of economy as result.

 Can Europe survive on US liquefied gas alone?  -Yes, but it will be another Europe with lower living standards and less competitive economy.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

[mandeb48]

55 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

 What is the atmosphere among normal people in that area? – it is complex question. Last year new program of economic recovery was initiated by new curator of regional economy, with plans to bring average income up to the level of Rostov Oblast (Rus region across the border). If successful, it will make the region the most prosperous among other regions of Ukraine, except mey be capital Kiev. But it is plans, so let’s wait and see. At least salaries are now paid, Russian citizenship provide many locals with unrestricted access to Rus job market etc. – so the mood is not so bad as it was two years ago/

What can you tell us about the situation of young people, many have emigrated to Russia or other places?

How many people have Russian passports in that area?

Can you go a little deeper into the economic situation in Donbass?, I couldn't find anything up-to-date.

Thanks

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by mandeb48

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

[bojan]

And if it does not happen in 4 weeks?

This is seriously starting to remind me of "just two weeks to flatten the curve".

Edited January 21, 2022 by bojan

[Stuart Galbraith]

If it doesn't happen in 4 weeks, many will be saying it never was going to happen. For all we know Vladdy has a lucky coin he flips for difficult decisions.

Or Biden sells out Ukraine, which with his dismal track record is always possible.