Kiev Is Burning

[KV7]

Even the PRK isn't an autarky, and to the extent that it is, it is largely an effect of sanctions. There is considerable imports of industrial inputs from China.

[Simon Tan]

Make nothing. Depend on services. That is the future. Yes?

[Stuart Galbraith]

10 hours ago, bojan said:

Is it funny that Tornado aircrafts had Yugoslav made electronic parts (communist county, oh the horror), or that F/A-18 had Yugoslav made hydraulic parts (double horror)? Or that our local 1958. vintage Geiger counter had Raytheon parts? Does that stops Tornado being pure British/German/Italian or F/A-18 pure US product or that Geiger counter Yugoslav?

World is a global village for a long time already, unless you are North Korea or few others, and the fact that you have used someone else parts or tools to make a product is unavoidable and generally irrelevant.

 

Yes, but we  never claimed not to have any foreign parts in our aircraft, we know we did. Good God, even the Boeing 767 only had 45 percent of its components built in the US, and that was nearly 40 years ago.

The irony was that if you watch the relevant episode of Combat Approved, they claim that the missile is 100 percent the work of mother Russia. And they are using Western kit to build it.

Im not judging, im not offering some kind of moral observation. I just found it funny. You do remember funny, right Bojan?🙃

Besides, the prototype Me109 and Stuka were both powered by Rolls Royce engines. The gearbox in Tiger seemed to have been designed by, or at least strongly influenced by Merritt Brown if memory serves. We all know about Toshiba Kongsberg. These are not new problems. Its just a lot easier to see it in the global media village in which we live.

[Stuart Galbraith]

4 hours ago, Simon Tan said:

Make nothing. Depend on services. That is the future. Yes?

Not my narrative, go take it up with Maggie T.

[Roman Alymov]

25 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

The irony was that if you watch the relevant episode of Combat Approved, they claim that the missile is 100 percent the work of mother Russia. And they are using Western kit to build it.

They are not some kind of scientific source, but just popular TV program, made by journalists and advised by officers in Col rank who often lack knowledge of details as they are specialists in other fields, not necessarily even technical. Last week this guys were filming in old Kubinka museum (reopened after major reconstruction) and what one of the officers was telling to their host about MS-1 was mostly basics and old mistakes, any civilian armor historian  would do better. Luckily they also got senior age civilian specialists from tank industry to talk about newer tanks, so I hope overall performance of the program would be acceptable.

[Stuart Galbraith]

As I say, im not judging. It is what it is, and it really does have some exceptional footage of Russian weapon systems you cannot see elsewhere. Even the one on BTR was really interesting, even if it is not, as you say,always that well informed.

[Simon Tan]

Perfidious Albion backstabs plucky Ukraine in footie slaughter.

[Roman Alymov]

Progress of Ukrainian first and only project 58250 Vladimir the Great corvette (multifunctional frigate) construction (started in May, 2011)

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

They are buying Royal Navy warships now, so dont be surprised if they get Type 31 Frigates.

Besides, some of the Russian Navy warships have been even more protracted than that. I think one of the Delta IV's entered service around 2014, after being started by the Soviet Navy...

[alejandro_]

Quote

 

They are buying Royal Navy warships now, so dont be surprised if they get Type 31 Frigates.

Besides, some of the Russian Navy warships have been even more protracted than that. I think one of the Delta IV's entered service around 2014, after being started by the Soviet Navy...

 

According to Ukrainian MoD Vladimir the Great corvette has a hull which is 80% ready while 32% of the ship is complete. When you look at the pictures the few parts lying around seem to be ready to go to the scrapyard.

[Roman Alymov]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

They are buying Royal Navy warships now, so dont be surprised if they get Type 31 Frigates.

Besides, some of the Russian Navy warships have been even more protracted than that. I think one of the Delta IV's entered service around 2014, after being started by the Soviet Navy...

Future will tell what they will get, but current net result of widely advertised political project of constructing this ship ended up literally in ruins, as the shipbuilding plant, once one of the best in USSR (birthplace of Soviet aircraft carriers), followed the general trend of Ukrainian industry. Money were stolen under cover of chain of fleet commanders and political leaders speeches. I'm sure a lot of flats in London were bought

[Roman Alymov]

4 minutes ago, alejandro_ said:

According to Ukrainian MoD Vladimir the Great corvette has a hull which is 80% ready while 32% of the ship is complete. When you look at the pictures the few parts lying around seem to be ready to go to the scrapyard.

Unfortunatelly entire plant is gradually scrapped - see this picture from 2014 for comparison

[Stuart Galbraith]

Here you go, this is what they are getting.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-to-build-military-vessels-for-ukraine/

Ukraine is to sign a memorandum with the UK to secure £1.25 billion in funding to build new military vessels for the Ukrainian Navy, the first two ships will be constructed in the UK and the remaining 6 vessels will be built in Ukraine.

The vessels will be of the Barzan class, a British-designed fast attack missile boat. The Barzan class were first ordered by the Qatari Navy in 1992. Vosper Thornycroft ( Babcock International) was chosen to build the 4 ships of the class.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy was reported by local media as saying that the memorandum would be signed his state visit to the UK this week.

“This is an important strategic document … we will sign this memorandum for the amount of 1.25 billion pounds,” Zelenskiy said.

It has also been reported that the funds would be in the form of a 10-year loan.

 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

And also, and this is the key bit,

https://www.rt.com/russia/527280-deal-supply-naval-bases/

The latest memorandum means that Ukraine and the UK will soon cooperate on the joint design and construction of warships. Furthermore, Britain will assist Kiev in rebuilding its shipbuilding industry and help Ukraine break ground on two new naval bases.

 

 

[Roman Alymov]

Nice, so what we get is:

1)      Ukraine shipbuilding industry, once inherited from USSR as able to construct any type of warships including aircraft carriers, is now unable to deliver even missile boats of their own;

2)      Ukraine as state/economy is unable to afford it without loan -in other words, ships not only will be constructed by UK, but paid for by UK taxpayers – as prospects of Ukraine ever returning this money are unclear (taking endemic corruption into consideration).

    Britain ruling elite is desperately trying to find new role on international arena after not-exactly-successful Brexit and loosing the status of US main ally (now it is Germany https://www.politico.eu/article/united-states-no-better-friend-than-germany-us-ally/ ) , so we will probably see a lot of gamble in different hot points of the world from Crimea to China. Will see what party will prevail – “pro-US” or “pro-independent” (see recent leak of documents about Defender affair and Afghanistan withdrawal,    considered by some as “pro-US” party demonstrating discontent with decisions made by Gov).

Edited July 20, 2021 by Roman Alymov

[Stuart Galbraith]

30 years of corruption take their toll. Even the former Soviet Shipyards in Russia have their problems, as you yourself pointed out when the ONLY dock that could take Admiral Kuznetsov went and sank. And as said, you have had far longer delays in getting ships into service.

Please read it again, 2 of the ships will be built in the UK. And Ukraine is buying our surplus Sandown class minesweepers, and an Arctic patrol vessel that has been made surplus by MV Sir David Attenborough.

Funny thing about Brexit, we seem to keep getting European companies moving here. We just had a swedish food company move here bringing something like a thousand jobs with them. I can see the problems with Brexit, but thus far, its not correct to say its been less than successful. The main damage to our economy has been covid.

Yeah, well the Germany thing is old hat. Obama cluelessly said it whilst Britain was losing 450 soldiers in Helmand province. I strongly suspect that when the US wants a spare Aircraft Carrier, they wont be ringing up the German Chancellor.

 

[KV7]

Being an an over enthusiastic US ally, replete with having assets largely to attain some expeditionary capacity in support of the US is humiliating, rather than something to be proud of.

Germany has had a very bad influence on Europe via it's demand for deflationary policy in the EU, but it has been successful in achieving it's own coherent geopolitical goals, and it is basically the European hegemon now. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Why? If its fulfilling goals we agree with, then there is no shame in it. Its no different than what we did in WW2, where we took the back seat and let the Yanks drive the car, knowing we were headed for the destination we broadly agreeded upon. We all spent 40 years in NATO doing precisely that during the cold war.

The shame is when we allow the Americans to do our thinking for us, and we put our brains completely in neutral, which is arguably what happened in Iraq. I think we have learned that lesson however, which is why we are generating independent abilities in Space and at sea.

What coherent geopolitical goals? I truly mean no direspect to Germans or Angela Merkel, but I see stated aims to confront Russia and China, but where is the meat behind the words? You cant confront aggressors whilst appeasing them. There was a map I saw yesterday of countries that are best trading partners with China. It covered all of Africa and most of the central European states. That isnt a good position to stand up for democratic values. As for Europe, its Macrons stated aim to try and replace NATO with a European Defence Force, which is going to be truly epic and horrific to behold when it emerges.

 

 

[glenn239]

5 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

Nice, so what we get is:

1)      Ukraine shipbuilding industry, once inherited from USSR as able to construct any type of warships including aircraft carriers, is now unable to deliver even missile boats of their own;

2)      Ukraine as state/economy is unable to afford it without loan -in other words, ships not only will be constructed by UK, but paid for by UK taxpayers – as prospects of Ukraine ever returning this money are unclear (taking endemic corruption into consideration).

Or, what you might get is that the British assistance actually revitalizes the Ukrainian industry a bit.

[alejandro_]

Quote

Or, what you might get is that the British assistance actually revitalizes the Ukrainian industry a bit.

My impression is that Ukraine is caught in a perfect storm. The main market has dissapeared and EU/US won't be buying in the same numbers. There is no point in getting An-70 if A400M are produced in the EU, or Oplot if Leopard 2 are available. Yes, the UK will subcontract some of the work but it won't be as a ship designed and built in Ukraine. 

[Simon Tan]

British industrial revitalization.....LOL. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Nothing wrong with our shipyards though. Our shipyards are one of the few in Europe (yes, im looking at you Italy...) that are not propped up with EU industrial subsidy.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

There are also rumours of a Tornado rocket battery with numbers that match 2 GDS Mrd have been seen on a train in Belarus.

[Roman Alymov]

14 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

There are also rumours of a Tornado rocket battery with numbers that match 2 GDS Mrd have been seen on a train in Belarus.

Not “Bn” but brigade command position, according to pro-Ukrainians. Pro-Russians say this long-range artillery strike was conducted after repeated shelling by pro-Ukr artillery of settlements near frontline. Quite logical step to deliver the message to those giving orders, not cannon fodder on frontline positions.  Seems like the strike was modest in scale (as losses are only 7 WIA, only one badly wounded) – but effective in PR effect, since the news reached UK.

    Re “rumours”  - I do not know why quite official arrival of the division to Brest by rail, where it will take part in joint exercises, are described as “rumours”
Photos here
https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/6936027.html
 

[Roman Alymov]

On 7/21/2021 at 10:28 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

Nothing wrong with our shipyards though. Our shipyards are one of the few in Europe (yes, im looking at you Italy...) that are not propped up with EU industrial subsidy.

Still, prospects of UK revitalizing Ukraine heavy industry is quite unlikely (given the condition of UK own industry). But there is no need to argue about it - let’s just wait and see….