Kiev Is Burning

[jaro]

two questions... If it was Ukrainian BUK system captured, then how they managed to override IFF to shoot at Ukrainian planes, or If they removed it, who did it actually... it is not an easy task some conscript would achieve... so either some skilled technician helped them or that BUK was not from Ukrainian stores.

[Roman Alymov]

two questions... If it was Ukrainian BUK system captured, then how they managed to override IFF to shoot at Ukrainian planes, or If they removed it, who did it actually... it is not an easy task some conscript would achieve... so either some skilled technician helped them or that BUK was not from Ukrainian stores.

First, AFAIK IFF system on Soviet/Russian systems are not preventing the attack – but just warning it is “friendly” target. So no need to override it to shoot at anything, just ignore the buzz sounding/indicator blinking. And foreign civilian plane is “foe” anyway.

Additionally, IFF codes are supposed to be changed on regular basis – so if one of the systems is in hostile hands for some time, it will be indicated as “foe” and vice versa. So probably will be even no such a minor problem as buzz/light.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Roman Alymov

[Adam Peter]

"They shown the world they can wiretap us, so, to be clear, I say from high, higher, from Moscow three times..."

[Roman Alymov]

This report come in on sky. It could easily be Ukrainian disinformation, or It might be valid, ill leave others to make their own minds up about it.

http://news.sky.com/story/1304439/russia-told-rebels-to-hide-mh17s-black-boxes

Lengthy interview of Donetsk republic head (in Russian). Regarding black boxes -he is saying “ We do not have aviation safety experts here, but I can say we have in our hands in Donetsk some devices we believe to be flight recorders and we are ready to give them to ICAO as soon as they arrive”. He is angry there are still no international experts on the scene – saying “it seems like we are located somewhere on the end of the word in Antarctica, not in the middle of Europe in 5 hours drive from Kiev”. International experts are for the 3rd day in Kiev but are not going to the crash site he belive due to pro-Ukrainians blocking them. He also denied report railway freezer-cars with bodies are to move anywhere – they are to stay in Torez until international experts arrive.

He strongly insist on international experts to hurry up.

[Marek Tucan]

If it is from the day after, the knowledge of wiretaps would not be yet spread - it was the day the wiretaps began to emerge.

 

This in no way proves the recordings are authentic, but it kinda fits with the situation on the ground.

[Gregory]

3.4 million Euros is like maybe 7000 PAP? If they subbed chromed barrels and changed the layout to be true AK, they would sell 3x that per year.

Honestly, for civilian shooter of AK-47 chromelined barrels are non-issue. Vast majority of all ammo on the market right now is non-corrosive, and very few shooters will fire enough rounds through their rifles where longer lifespan of a chromelined barrel will factor into it.

[Gregory]

 

This report come in on sky. It could easily be Ukrainian disinformation, or It might be valid, ill leave others to make their own minds up about it.

http://news.sky.com/story/1304439/russia-told-rebels-to-hide-mh17s-black-boxes

Lengthy interview of Donetsk republic head (in Russian). Regarding black boxes -he is saying “ We do not have aviation safety experts here, but I can say we have in our hands in Donetsk some devices we believe to be flight recorders and we are ready to give them to ICAO as soon as they arrive”. He is angry there are still no international experts on the scene – saying “it seems like we are located somewhere on the end of the word in Antarctica, not in the middle of Europe in 5 hours drive from Kiev”. International experts are for the 3rd day in Kiev but are not going to the crash site he belive due to pro-Ukrainians blocking them. He also denied report railway freezer-cars with bodies are to move anywhere – they are to stay in Torez until international experts arrive.

He strongly insist on international experts to hurry up.

 

 

 

Perhaps he should strongly insist his goons on the scene let the international experts in. Of course, that would mean they might find something before it was "cleaned up".

[Roman Alymov]

If it is from the day after, the knowledge of wiretaps would not be yet spread - it was the day the wiretaps began to emerge.

 

Come on, every person in Russia and Ukraine know ALL cellular calls are potentially monitored - and SBU was publishing different intercepts, true or fake, since at least April. So there is no reason to believe publishing any new intercepts, true or fake, changed anything.

[Yama]

If it is from the day after, the knowledge of wiretaps would not be yet spread - it was the day the wiretaps began to emerge.

 

This in no way proves the recordings are authentic, but it kinda fits with the situation on the ground.

SBU has been releasing these taps for months, rebels are well aware that phones are unsecure.

Usually these taps are accompanied by information about the talking people, not apparently in this case which makes them slightly suspect.

[Gregory]

 

If it is from the day after, the knowledge of wiretaps would not be yet spread - it was the day the wiretaps began to emerge.

 

Come on, every person in Russia and Ukraine know ALL cellular calls are potentially monitored - and SBU was publishing different intercepts, true or fake, since at least April. So there is no reason to believe publishing any new intercepts, true or fake, changed anything.

 

 

Who says this was from a cell phone call?

[Roman Alymov]

 

Perhaps he should strongly insist his goons on the scene let the international experts in. Of course, that would mean they might find something before it was "cleaned up".

 

If they are still in Kiev, how can it be some goons prevented them from going to the crash site? OSCE is there for at least three days, correspondents are there (by the way he said OSCE observers strongly opposed allowing journalists to the crash site). Currently there are 12 OSCE people and 4 Ukrainian experts on the place, and according to him 12 Malaysian experts somewhere on the way expected to arrive in the evening.

[Roman Alymov]

 

Who says this was from a cell phone call?

 

Have you seen article Stuart linked above? They indicate phone numbers, both of them are of Ukrainian cellular network operators (check here http://numbers.in.ua/articles.php?article_id=23)

[Gregory]

 

 

Perhaps he should strongly insist his goons on the scene let the international experts in. Of course, that would mean they might find something before it was "cleaned up".

 

If they are still in Kiev, how can it be some goons prevented them from going to the crash site?

 

By firing on the OSCE investigators who were on site.

http://www.ibtimes.com/ukrainian-rebels-fire-warning-shot-osce-investigators-near-mh17-crash-site-twitter-reports-1632866

 

 

OSCE is there for at least three days, correspondents are there (by the way he said OSCE observers strongly opposed allowing journalists to the crash site). Currently there are 12 OSCE people and 4 Ukrainian experts on the place, and according to him 12 Malaysian experts somewhere on the way expected to arrive in the evening.

 

The 12 OSCE people who are allowed to view wreckage from a distance, and not allowed to approach it?

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/World/2014/07/19/Rebels-prevent-monitors-from-approaching-plane-wreckage-in-east-Ukraine--witness/

[Adam Peter]

By definition, what an OSCE officer can do other than watching from a distance in order to register anything unallowed happening?

Here are some closeup of OSCE people: http://bit.ly/Uk39vl MacBook Air + shorts, two things for hard work and digging into corpses?

[Roman Alymov]

 

By firing on the OSCE investigators who were on site.

http://www.ibtimes.com/ukrainian-rebels-fire-warning-shot-osce-investigators-near-mh17-crash-site-twitter-reports-1632866

 

 

The 12 OSCE people who are allowed to view wreckage from a distance, and not allowed to approach it?

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/World/2014/07/19/Rebels-prevent-monitors-from-approaching-plane-wreckage-in-east-Ukraine--witness/

 

Note the different between “observers” and “investigators”. The very title of this article is false since OSCE people are security observers, not aviation safety investigators, and are not supposed to do anything with the wreck.

[ink]

 

 

By firing on the OSCE investigators who were on site.

http://www.ibtimes.com/ukrainian-rebels-fire-warning-shot-osce-investigators-near-mh17-crash-site-twitter-reports-1632866

 

 

The 12 OSCE people who are allowed to view wreckage from a distance, and not allowed to approach it?

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/World/2014/07/19/Rebels-prevent-monitors-from-approaching-plane-wreckage-in-east-Ukraine--witness/

 

 

Sorry, for some reason I can't open either of the links you posted. Is it regional restrictions or something or are the links broken for everyone else too?

 

EDIT: Ok, sorry, they work now. My bad.

Edited July 20, 2014 by ink

[bd1]

 

 

This might be apt depiction of events....

 

 

They are neanderthals for sure.

 

From the various news reports you can tell that the "rebels" absolutely hate foreigners and are "allowing" them there with the greatest reluctance.

 

We are really talking about very primitive people. They absolutely do live in their own reality.

 

 

You're not demonising them enough.

Have another go.

 

Maybe we can use a foreign phrase meaning "under people" for more effect, and shell the urban areas a bit more...

 

This is a bad enough conflict with regards to idiocy and demonising from both sides.

Travelling further down this road will lead to even worse tragedy.

 

well, one local russian poster on estonian board used phrase ´´geopolitical autists´´., actually on kremlin administration, but would this be acceptable to you ?

[Gregory]

 

 

By firing on the OSCE investigators who were on site.

http://www.ibtimes.com/ukrainian-rebels-fire-warning-shot-osce-investigators-near-mh17-crash-site-twitter-reports-1632866

 

 

The 12 OSCE people who are allowed to view wreckage from a distance, and not allowed to approach it?

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/World/2014/07/19/Rebels-prevent-monitors-from-approaching-plane-wreckage-in-east-Ukraine--witness/

 

Note the different between “observers” and “investigators”. The very title of this article is false since OSCE people are security observers, not aviation safety investigators, and are not supposed to do anything with the wreck.

 

 

Correct - they are supposed to monitor that the site security is maintained and materials are not removed from it improperly. Which is exactly what separatists don't want to happen, and hence are preventing the observer mission from doing their job.

[Fritz]

Perhaps the rebels used this to learn how to fire Buk

 

https://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

 

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/dont-think-russian-rebels-can-learn-how-to-fire-an-anti-air-missile-try-this-simulator-8dd9e323ed12

Edited July 21, 2014 by Fritz

[Simon Tan]

Bojan...every prospective AK owner is meant to be sitting on a cache of corrosive M43 in spam cans. It's all perception. PAPs don't command more money because they are seen as...less-AK. Arsenal AKs are getting 2x that of Zastava.

[Gregory]

Airstrike on separatist's checkpoint

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmhfWn0zbg

Edited July 21, 2014 by Gregory

[Gregory]

Ukrainian army column, including 2S3 Gvozdikas moving through recently liberated Artemovsk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd-_mvkokaQ

[Gregory]

Artillery bombardment near Lisichansk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvU4tnh3aQs&index=24&list=UUAZg55_KAkaKdJxqDd4JksA

[Roman Alymov]

As I see it right now there is one of three possibilities.

1 He is a bullshitting bastard who is lying through his teeth.

2 He is an honest broker whom is trying to resolve the situation fairly, but has the problem that the armed wing of the rebels are just not listening to him. They have not allowed full access to inspectors, and they are not allowing the iCAO to take custody of the bodies by not allowing them in the area. They seem to have had the black boxes since Friday, but not sign of what has happened to them.

3 The Ukrainians are blocking access. But there is absolutely no evidence this is the case.

 

If 2, it points to the interview Fritz posted earlier of having some validity when it pointed to splits in the Rebels positions. He might issue all these decrees and agreements, but until the armed wing allow full access and recovery of the bodies, its pretty much hot air. Which also suggests why the cease fires keep breaking down, there is really nobody to negotiate with.

 

About 200 bodies already recovered and stored in freezers – Borodai (the speaker on the video above) insist they done it after waiting for investigators for arrive as long as they can, and that further leaving bodies lying in 30C heat and prone to animals was inhumane. What about not allowing investigators in – seems like hundreds of investigators stuck in Kiev without any further move, so it is not pro-Russians who is preventing them.

I think pro-Ukrainian side and those supporting them are satisfied with the effect they already have (now there is major fighting inside Donetsk itself, a lot of civilian losses all around the territory and Ukrainian army freely using all heavy weapons assets they have against populated areas - nobody even notice). So they are not interested in any investigation – they got all they need from this incident and now rush to use the momentum.

What will investigation give them?

1. Blame pro-Russians and Russia – but it is what we have now to full extent (probably highest extent possible), with full military use of this achievements in process
2. Blame pro-Ukrainians - do they really need this outcome?
3. Came to no clear conclusion after years of investigations – then there is no rush to allow investigators in (the longer investigators stay out, the more easy is to accuse pro-Russians of removing \ altering the evidence etc.

I see no single reason for pro-Ukrainians to rush investigators to the scene….

[ink]

 

they are not allowing the iCAO to take custody of the bodies by not allowing them in the area.

 

 

I haven't heard this. Is it true?

 

I know there has been some obstruction of OSCE observers but the two are hardly the same thing. Also, I know the media love to portray the OSCE as some saintly, objective, above-it-all organisation but I can tell you with certainty that that isn't always the case.

 

 

******************

 

I would also add that Kiev seems to be trying to milk this for as much as it's worth in terms of propaganda and perhaps drawing the West into the conflict. I find that a bit distasteful and it makes me distrust just about everything they have said since the crash (including those taped conversations)... until proven otherwise, of course.