Kiev Is Burning

[BLAH]

Rebels seem like they've been in some action:

 

[savantu]

Uh... have I missed something? Isn't that exactly what the NYT article was about?

Have you actually read the article ? A bunch of ex-soviet army drink-sodden mid-life crisis tards that sit in a roadblock and their greatest test for themselves was to " impose a ban on drinking".

 

I'm talking about other "little green men" and you also know this.

 

 

 

What a genuinely deplorable comment. The disregard towards human life when it's in his interests that Stuart was attributing to Putin above seems to apply even more to you... except you haven't got any interests, you're just being a d!ck on the internet about people dying in tragic circumstances.

Indeed. Let's cry for the poor bastards that thought wisely of attacking a march pro-Ukrainians and got literally burned in the process. Unfortunately for those rebels, the pro-Ukrainian march wasn't composed of unarmed civilian men, women, young people, children and elderly like in Eastern Ukraine. A d*ck and a hypocrite like you obviously can't fathom the difference between pro-Ukrainian demonstrations, peaceful, always quiet, no weapons and the despicable pro-russians who are nothing more than a bunch of armed thugs always attacking the former or buildings/property.

 

They got shafted once. That's not tragic. That's natural JUSTICE. Just as the arab retards blowing themselves up while learning to build bombs. You have to be HUMAN to deserve respect.

Hopefully it will happen more often in the future. And I have more interests having 400 miles of border with Ukraine and a sister-nation trying to extricate itself from under the russian boot.

Far more interested than a serbian slavofile who has no f*ing clue why he is supporting "the bigger brother" in the East.

Edited May 5, 2014 by savantu

[glenn239]

I haven't followed the developments from the beginning thinking it will just go away. It hasn't, of course.

 

So I wonder if anyone can be kind enough to make a very short summary of what's happened? Who's fighting who, why, and who's winning? Thanks in advance.

 

The EU made a powerplay to draw the Ukraine into the EU's orbit at the expense of Russian influence. The Russian's upped the bid to 15 billion, which caused Kiev to look east. A coup followed in Kiev - circumstances of western involvement not exactly clear, followed by the Russians annexing Crimea.

 

Increasing unrest has rocked Eastern Ukraine - the pattern of masked gunman looks different than Crimea - more random, less organised. The west has blamed the Russians and are unveiling a sanctions package publically to try and deter Putin, for fear of international isolatation - showing the instruments, as it were.

 

This is the part where China should pay attention - the West is making an example of Russia in order to show China what the immediate consequences of aggression in the Pacific might be - this is as much about showing the instruments to Beijing as to Moscow. Does China feel cowed and is ready to throw in the towel over those disputed islands with Japan? If yes, then China will work hard to deescalate the situation. If no, then perhaps China and Russia will break the American monopoly on energy trade by creating an alternative trade system based on the Chinese Yen within months.

Edited May 5, 2014 by glenn239

[Roman Alymov]

 

Have you actually read the article ? A bunch of ex-soviet army drink-sodden mid-life crisis tards that sit in a roadblock and their greatest test for themselves was to " impose a ban on drinking".

Right now as we speak here those “ex-soviet army drink-sodden mid-life crisis tards” fight against new Ukrainian army offensive, supported by armor and helicopters–something most of European armies have not experienced in last 50 years.

.

 

 

They got shafted once. That's not tragic. That's natural JUSTICE. Just as the arab retards blowing themselves up while learning to build bombs. You have to be HUMAN to deserve respect.

Hopefully it will happen more often in the future. And I have more interests having 400 miles of border with Ukraine and a sister-nation trying to extricate itself from under the russian boot.

Far more interested than a serbian slavofile who has no f*ing clue why he is supporting "the bigger brother" in the East.

 

 

There is a good practice to imagine saying it in person to somebody, before writing it into internet. Would you be ready to say it to relatives of those dead?

[Roman Alymov]

Rebels seem like they've been in some action:

 

They say only five men of 25-strong group made it through two circles of Ukrainian army -but they are ready to carry on. Report here http://www.kp.ru/daily/26227.5/3110058/

[EchoFiveMike]

The fact that it's BS?

 

 

Really? Which part?

 

Or are you simply butt hurt because there's actually no good reason for the US to expend resources on corrupt dysfunctional people in a shitty part of the world? The only good reason to go there is to acquire resources cheap. As crazyinsane105 notes, they have attractive women.

 

 

At least Stuart is cordial about trying to coerce the stupid Americans to do the heavy lifting for conniving foreigners without having any good reason to stick their dicks in a meat grinder.

 

He's simply staying true to his perfidious Albionese nature. http://www.historynet.com/britains-propaganda-war-on-america.htm

 

S/F....Ken M

[urbanoid]

There is a good practice to imagine saying it in person to somebody, before writing it into internet. Would you be ready to say it to relatives of those dead?

 

Oh, so they had relatives, so what, almost everybody has ones, but it still doesn't change the fact that by attacking the march they shouldn't have expected not to be attacked in retaliation. Really, what kind of an argument is it in the first place? Savages that attacked Western forces in Iraq while utilizing human shields, or the same ones attacking the Israelis from Gaza Strip have relatives too, should we be sorry for them? Well, fuck them, I am not.

[glenn239]

 

Oh, so they had relatives, so what, almost everybody has ones, but it still doesn't change the fact that by attacking the march they shouldn't have expected not to be attacked in retaliation. Really, what kind of an argument is it in the first place? Savages that attacked Western forces in Iraq while utilizing human shields, or the same ones attacking the Israelis from Gaza Strip have relatives too, should we be sorry for them? Well, fuck them, I am not.

 

The unrest of the Arab Spring has jumped the Med into Europe. From Ukraine, it could spread east, so before saying 'fuck the Russian savages', you should think long and hard whether you want Russia to help quell the unrest, or to help spread it.

Edited May 5, 2014 by glenn239

[savantu]

Right now as we speak here those “ex-soviet army drink-sodden mid-life crisis tards” fight against new Ukrainian army offensive, supported by armor and helicopters–something most of European armies have not experienced in last 50 years.

Ukraine doesn't have an army, nor real police or special forces. At best they have mobs of armed men under the patronage of the local Cesars and who have no or little training, antique weapons and no idea where their loyalty is.

 

If there had been a modicum of professionals in the army, loyal to the country, as little as 20% of the units ( I say units as in company/battalion size and not individuals ), nothing we see now ( including Crimea ) would have happened.

But that's something researchers will investigate in defining the concept of "failed state".

 

 

There is a good practice to imagine saying it in person to somebody, before writing it into internet. Would you be ready to say it to relatives of those dead?

Ah yes, the ultimate argument. What do we say to the relatives ?

 

Short answer - I don't know. I might need help from you.

 

So Roman, what would be your message to Shamil's Basayev's widow and relatives ? Or to the relatives and surviving widows of the "freedom fighters" from Beslan ?

Put your advice to good practice.

Edited May 5, 2014 by savantu

[Roman Alymov]

Seems like Ukrainians declared hunt for British journalist, accusing him to be Russian spy

https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK/status/463225559401525249/photo/1

 

His page https://www.facebook.com/grahamwphillips?fref=nf

[glenn239]

 

Thats before you notice quite how much you have loaned to European economies. RT says 4 Trillion, others say its only 3, but either way it suggests it would be inadvisable to play the absent landlord who can afford to watch his property burning down for too long.

http://rt.com/usa/fed-loaned-trillion-us/

 

One might suggest im overplaying this, that its only Eastern Europe, not fully developed economies that will be affected (though I suspect the Czechs and the Poles may see it differently) You only have to look at Somalia to see the affect of instability in africa around it that it alone has created. If Ukraine went the same way, what effect is that going to have on American exports to Europe as Eastern Europe becomes overrun by insurgents and terrorists? You are going to be the ones to suffer from this, as much as anyone.

 

Its easy to make believe its a far off country of which we know little. It turned out not to be true in 1938, and in an era of globally connected markets, it is a comfortable myth to believe the US can avoid instability in developed economies. It is in my view just that, a myth.

 

 

Any way we can tone down this endless drone of Munich Crisis stuff? We get it - Putin is Hitler and even if he's not Hitler, you'd prefer there be a war, because why take a chance on a comprimise settlement when the Americans can fight for you?

 

One slight problem with the International Adolf Hitler Chicken Little Detection Unit these days - ever so convieniently, new Hitlers seem to be discovered all the time. And surprise, they always just happen to be the current countries that the hard right Washington elite might want to bomb next.

 

Anyways, you seem preoccupied with comparing this to 1930's European crises. Putin is more like Mussolini than Hitler. In 1935, in one of the most stupid performances in the history of the League of Nations, in response to otherwise meaningless Italian aggression in North Africa, the British and French confronted Rome, triggering the Abyssinia Crisis. The outcome of this crisis was that Italy (read, Russia) was so embittered and distrustful of the west that it turned its back on it and ceased any cooperation against Hitler (read, China). Instead of containing Nazi aggression in Eastern Europe, the foolish decision to confront Italy in 1935 made Hitler's job easier.

[savantu]

 

Oh, so they had relatives, so what, almost everybody has ones, but it still doesn't change the fact that by attacking the march they shouldn't have expected not to be attacked in retaliation. Really, what kind of an argument is it in the first place? Savages that attacked Western forces in Iraq while utilizing human shields, or the same ones attacking the Israelis from Gaza Strip have relatives too, should we be sorry for them? Well, fuck them, I am not.

The unrest of the Arab Spring has jumped the Med into Europe. From Ukraine, it could spread east, so before saying 'fuck the Russian savages', you should think long and hard whether you want Russia to help quell the unrest, or to help spread it.

 

The problem with the Russians quelling unrest is that they forget to leave after coming to "help" and have the bad habit of bringing all the misery and the hollowness of the slavic soul as portrayed by their great writers.

 

I would say it would be the best thing since sliced bread for Russia to suffer an "arab spring". It would be the only way for the country to break with its rotten past that still spews its putrid fumes towards Europe.

 

The Soviet Union collapsed because in the Empire of Lies, the concentration of lies wasn't enough anymore. Putin wants to increase it again to the required level.

If the Russians are smart they will change path before they start queuing again for bread and meat rations.

Edited May 5, 2014 by savantu

[X-Files]

Summary

Citizens of the Ukrainian city of Lugansk, 30 kilometres from the Russian border, are learning how to use Kalashnikovs in case the looming threat of civil war becomes reality.

Pro-Russian fervour is sweeping eastern Ukraine and has intensified following the deaths of 24 people in the southern port of Odessa on Friday, many of them pro-Russian militants who died in a building fire.

Pro-Russian militants seized control of Lugansk's security agency a month ago and the separatist leader in the city of half a million people has told local military commanders to swear allegiance to their self-styled "Lugansk Republic" or get out.

 

 

Video here

http://www.france24.com/en/20140505-civilians-lugansk-ready-civil-war/

 

Reading music

http://youtu.be/CD3fCVPBgcQ

 

Whyever would one need personally-owned firearms? That could never happen here.

 

Tee hee.

Edited May 5, 2014 by X-Files

[JasonJ]

 

I haven't followed the developments from the beginning thinking it will just go away. It hasn't, of course.

 

So I wonder if anyone can be kind enough to make a very short summary of what's happened? Who's fighting who, why, and who's winning? Thanks in advance.

This is the part where China should pay attention - the West is making an example of Russia in order to show China what the immediate consequences of aggression in the Pacific might be - this is as much about showing the instruments to Beijing as to Moscow. Does China feel cowed and is ready to throw in the towel over those disputed islands with Japan? If yes, then China will work hard to deescalate the situation. If no, then perhaps China and Russia will break the American monopoly on energy trade by creating an alternative trade system based on the Chinese Yen within months.

Maybe but only as the cherry on top. A lot of things have already happened or were already in motion as Crimea was taking such as the return of the US navy in the Philippines and two B-52 bombers flying right through the Chinese air defence zone as it was made. And even then, South Korea expanded their air defense zone to overlap with China's. Recently Obama said that the US will defend all territory of Japan even explicitly saying the Senkaku islands when he visited Japan in April. Japan on the other side has scrambled hundreds of times jets to meet Chinese intrusions, boosted military presence around the islands with practices in the event of an invasion, and is building a new radar station closer to the island. And Japan is making moves to change its constitution so that Japan will be able to participate in "collective defense" with ally nations. I think the message is already quite strong without the events in the Ukraine at all.

Edited May 5, 2014 by JasonJ

[urbanoid]

 

 

Oh, so they had relatives, so what, almost everybody has ones, but it still doesn't change the fact that by attacking the march they shouldn't have expected not to be attacked in retaliation. Really, what kind of an argument is it in the first place? Savages that attacked Western forces in Iraq while utilizing human shields, or the same ones attacking the Israelis from Gaza Strip have relatives too, should we be sorry for them? Well, fuck them, I am not.

 

The unrest of the Arab Spring has jumped the Med into Europe. From Ukraine, it could spread east, so before saying 'fuck the Russian savages', you should think long and hard whether you want Russia to help quell the unrest, or to help spread it.

 

 

I don't want them to do either, I want them to stay the fuck out. Russian 'help' can be equally disastrous as Russian aggression, that's a common knowledge here in Central Europe.

 

And I can only see one scenario in which the Ukrainian events can 'spread east', i.e. when the Ukrainians become a successful country in some 10-15 years, this will be a danger to the very system Mr. Putin has built in Russia. And it would be a Good Thing™.

Edited May 5, 2014 by urbanoid

[Roman Alymov]

Ukraine doesn't have an army, nor real police or special forces. At best they have mobs of armed men under the patronage of the local Cesars and who have no or little training, antique weapons and no idea where their loyalty is.

Even bad army is still army, even old bullet could kill man, not saying about old tank or old helicopter. So in my opinion this people at least deserve respect for their bravery (as well as their counterparts also risking their lives).

 

 

So Roman, what would be your message to Shamil's Basayev's widow and relatives ? Or to the relatives and surviving widows of the "freedom fighters" from Beslan ?

Put your advice to good practice.

 

By Russian law what you just said is a criminal offence, for “inflaming national hatred”. If I openly say something like “This Chechens are not humans” – I would be in trouble. Seems like we are ages behind European freedoms. So my answer is “I will say nothing”.

[X-Files]

 

reading music

 

[DKTanker]

I really dont get you Americans. You happily trade with the entire planet trading on your global power and economic influence, and happily labour under the illusion you can somehow at exactly the same time shut yourself off the world like the Japanese in the 19th Century. Didnt you fellas take notes during 911 or Pearl Harbour? Its a little late in the day to believe you can stick with the Castlereagh doctrine isnt it? Even he had to pledge commitment to something in the end.

 

Look, if you believe going to war with Russia is a great idea, how about imploring the nations of Europe to do just that? I think I speak for many Americans when I say, if you want a war have at it but leave us out. Round up your armored divisions and Air Forces and go contest the Ukraine in the name of European entitlement to cheap Russian LNG.

[EchoFiveMike]

 

Since when did the WW2 experience become Irrelevant?

 

Irrelevant? Because we should not be negotiating with Putin. We should give no shits about this, anymore than Russia would GAS about us clubbing down Mexico. YOU want to inject US into the world's shitty little problems because it benefits YOU.

 

Particularly when a significant number of Eastern Europeans who post on this thread would have had relatives who suffered in that period because, once again, the Western Allies thought they could dodge the bullet.

 

They feel pain and suffered loss. So what? Nothing to do with us.

 

Well they didn't, they just postponed the inevitable. All it achieved was the inevitability of your country becoming involved at a later date when it became a world war. Consider this. You could have left the ETO happily alone, and had a V3 with anthrax on the end (or worse) dropping on new york or Washington in 1945

 

Physically and scientifically impossible. Besides, YOU were the country going bio. Remember?

 

You didn't, because you had a problem and Roosevelt successfully prioritized the more important one.

 

Important to whom? Somehow you guys are making out for US expending effort, men and money. Where's OUR payoff?

 

That's also not counting the not insignificant amount of genocide that the Nazis committed. That at the very least has to be of significance surely?

 

Not in the slightest. Not Americans, don't care. Life's hard all over, tough shit. YOU pay for it.

 

You believe that Putin can be appeased, and that its got nothing to do with you. As someone who constantly talks about how great it would be to nuke the Soviet Union, I cant quite understand the mental backflip you just employed to somehow suggest that the WW2 and Cold war experience is irrelevant and nothing to concern yourself with.

 

I wish we'd have nuked the USSR when it would have cost nothing more than the accident rate of the flying time, because of the potential magnitude of being wrong ie end of US as we know it. At this point, it's irrelevant, as the US is self destructing even having "won" the Cold War and I lack a time machine anyways.

 

My own view is, we are dealing with a man who quite happily stole someone else's territory with non existent legality. Maybe you live under the quaint illusion that he only does that to 'unreal' nations, but my own view is that appeasement is the very last tactic we should be doing. You guys are always banging on about Ronald Reagan, what do you think HE would be doing at the moment? Playing the evil empire speech, or dodging behind the sofa pretending its nothing to do with him?

 

Putin's Russia is not USSR, the only way the Russians can invade the US is via commercial airlines and the biggest threat to America is cultural suicide which we're doing at Mach 3+

 

I dont want a war with Russia. I dont even want troops sent to Ukraine. But I think its about damn time we all woke up to the fact that East West relations changed irrevocably, yes perhaps of the degree of significance of a Berlin in 1948 moment. We would do very well to look at the lessons that worked in the past, rather than trying to reemulate the mistakes and pretend that just the guy across the streets problem. Because if he keeps up this pattern of behaviour, sooner or later it going to effect you, just like the last 2 times your nation dodged a problem till it was almost too late to deal with. That ended up costing you as much as it cost us. I really dont get you Americans. You happily trade with the entire planet trading on your global power and economic influence, and happily labour under the illusion you can somehow at exactly the same time shut yourself off the world like the Japanese in the 19th Century. Didnt you fellas take notes during 911 or Pearl Harbour? Its a little late in the day to believe you can stick with the Castlereagh doctrine isnt it? Even he had to pledge commitment to something in the end.

 

Shut ourselves off? Not at all, just let private business do business, not our stupid corrupt government full of self interested politicians with no loyalty to the American people, only themselves and their money. Pearl Harbor? FDR fomented that war with his oil embargo, remember? Sep 11? We brought that on ourselves by not sacking up and putting hard demands to the Saudis and the rest of the Muslim world after previous attacks by the Islamic jihadists. And we failed to react properly to that too. Either be a hard-ass or roll over, no half measures. S/F.....Ken M

[DKTanker]

 

One slight problem with the International Adolf Hitler Chicken Little Detection Unit these days - ever so convieniently, new Hitlers seem to be discovered all the time. And surprise, they always just happen to be the current countries that the hard right Washington elite might want to bomb next.

 

I just can't let the meme that the hard left Washington elite is all about doves and olive branches while it is the hard right Washington elite that is bomb happy, stand unchallenged, so I have just three questions.

 

I forget, who was it that was left sulking after they were denied the option of bombing Syria? Who is it that was strutting about bragging to everyone that would listen about the efficacy of his drone war? Who was it that never tired of talking about how they bombed Serbia and Kosovo from 15,000 feet and didn't suffer any ground casualties?

[Mistral]

Another Mi-24 shot down.

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1255508/ukraine-helicopter-shot-down-over-slavyansk

[savantu]

EchoFiveMike - Pax Americana benefits the US the most and that's precisely the reason why the US will keep being global policeman, have bases everywhere and keep an army able to fight multiple major wars. That's why you're fighting in Panama, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, whatever God-forgotten place on Earth. You're fighting small wars in order to avoid the big ones.

[carrierlost]

Do we have an armored train section? There are reports that separatists tried to build one it seems but unfortunately it was destroyed.

[EchoFiveMike]

EchoFiveMike - Pax Americana benefits the US the most and that's precisely the reason why the US will keep being global policeman, have bases everywhere and keep an army able to fight multiple major wars. That's why you're fighting in Panama, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, whatever God-forgotten place on Earth. You're fighting small wars in order to avoid the big ones.

But it doesn't. It benefits a few well connected oligarchs and the rest of us assholes have to pay for it and/or go beat down the unruly natives. S/F....Ken M

[Roman Alymov]

Another Mi-24 shot down.

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1255508/ukraine-helicopter-shot-down-over-slavyansk

Video of the event - The most interesting for me is woman talking by mobile (?) saying something like “There is a helicopter hovering and firing, could you please do something about it?” Like if calling plumber to fix the tap. Seems like real name for Slavyansk is Sparta.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctH57Xi4aH8