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"lions Led By Donkeys" - Topic Close To Billb's Heart


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...so its not as if the Germans were THAT much more innovative, even if they had developed infiltration tactics...

Both Bulgarian and Serbian army used those, along with dedicated assault troops in the siege of Adrianople. Germans had observers present.

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We will never know if they saw idea or liked it, or were developing it already individually and what they saw confirmed their thinking.

Anyway, genesis of the assault troops and infiltration tactics had a long history, from a late medieval siege warfare to the WW1 trenches.

Both Bulgarian and Serbian army were quite forward thinking in trench warfare, eg. widely issuing hand grenades "before it was cool" and training soldiers for a close combat fighting other than a standard "move forward and stab a dummy with a bayonet" due the experience of 1st and 2nd Balkan wars..

Edited by bojan
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What was the difference between 1917/18 Anglo French small unit tactics and German storm trooper tactics?

 

Ubermench vs Donkeys as far as I can tell.

One can't argue with the German success in 1918, but it's rarely contextualised.

The Germans stripped their army to form a corps de elite to punch through the worst defences in Europe.

The Anglo-French developed methods to allow 'everyman' to defeat the best defences in Europe.

 

 

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I remember hearing a lecture on Auftragtaktik and fall gelb, and it does seem that Storm trooper style infiltration does suit the Prussian style of war. But I can certainly see they would buy in other concepts from other groups. Which means the genesis of WW2 german concepts is considerably wider than JC Fullers Plan 1919, who we Brits usually credit the Germans with reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission-type_tactics

 

It does seem on a small unit basis, the Germans were better than us in WW1. But in that kind of war,it doesnt seem usually to have made much difference. Ok, in 1914 and in early 1918 for short periods, maybe. But it only seems to have come into the fore during the era of what we now called Blitzkrieg, when mobility gave far greater opportunity to small units, and small unit leaders.

 

 

Is that a wholly misguided appreciation of what was going on, on my part?

Edited by Stuart Galbraith
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Haig, for all his faults, immediately saw the potential of the tank, and was one of the driving forces in getting it to the front line. Before probably it ought to have been, but give the guy credit,he could see the potential it had in getting casualties down. He was quite right.

 

 

Invention of the tank here,

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_tank#British_development

 

The word "Haig" does not appear the in the article.

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I never suggested he invented them. Try reading 'Devils Chariots'. Its very clear that Haig, when he heard about about the tank, actually modified the battle of the Somme to incorporate them.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Devils-Chariots-Birth-Secret-Battles/dp/0750941529/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=devils+chariots&qid=1598031066&sr=8-2

 

Sir Albert Sterns 'Memoirs of a Tank Pioneer' may mention it as well, I cant recall. Worth reading anyway as a primer for how badly British AFV procurement has always been.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith
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I never suggested he invented them. Try reading 'Devils Chariots'. Its very clear that Haig, when he heard about about the tank, actually modified the battle of the Somme to incorporate them.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Devils-Chariots-Birth-Secret-Battles/dp/0750941529/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=devils+chariots&qid=1598031066&sr=8-2

 

Sir Albert Sterns 'Memoirs of a Tank Pioneer' may mention it as well, I cant recall. Worth reading anyway as a primer for how badly British AFV procurement has always been.

 

Isn't Haig supposed to have seen Mother demonstrated and immediately demanded a couple of hundred as soon as they could be built?

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Something like that. He was deeply enthusiastic. Ive never had much time for him before, but my attitude towards him changed when I read that. He was only launching offensives because there was nothing else that could be done. When he saw there was potential alternatives, he jumped on them, even if he wasnt initially very good at integrating them in the plan. Well, nobody was at that point.

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I remember hearing a lecture on Auftragtaktik and fall gelb, and it does seem that Storm trooper style infiltration does suit the Prussian style of war. But I can certainly see they would buy in other concepts from other groups. Which means the genesis of WW2 german concepts is considerably wider than JC Fullers Plan 1919, who we Brits usually credit the Germans with reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission-type_tactics

 

It does seem on a small unit basis, the Germans were better than us in WW1. But in that kind of war,it doesnt seem usually to have made much difference. Ok, in 1914 and in early 1918 for short periods, maybe. But it only seems to have come into the fore during the era of what we now called Blitzkrieg, when mobility gave far greater opportunity to small units, and small unit leaders.

 

 

Is that a wholly misguided appreciation of what was going on, on my part?

 

Which small units are we talking about though? Elite stosstrupen or some guy in the Landwehr with a Gewehr 88?

 

One of these guys is not like the other.

 

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