"lions Led By Donkeys" - Topic Close To Billb's Heart

[Argus]

There was no fault in a legal/diplomatic sense in seizing the battleships. It was PR disaster and gave the Turks all the pretext they needed, but from a procedural point of view it was perfectly straight forward. At exactly the same time the Admiralty took up ships being built for Greece, Brazil and Norway that I can think of off hand, I'm sure there were others. No one else made a fuss. Because if you weren't looking for a raison de guerre it was not only perfectly legal (written in the contracts as part of the boiler plate) and diplomatically expected (it had been in every contract for 60 years or so), everyone knew that the RN 'would see you right' for any ship they took up, with a full refund and some degree of compensation for the bother. IIRC in 1939 both Greece and Turkey lost ships being built in UK yards to similar Admiralty requisition, and didn't bat an eyelid. 

On the other hand I think you're spot on with the failure in British and I'd add French diplomacy pre-war.  It's hard to fault the Turks for drifting into the German orbit. Unfortunately, and I mean that in every sense of the word, I think a lot of the story here it tied up in Armenian situation and with Russia. As a result the records are unreliable, no serious academic wants to touch it  and the public domain is befouled by partisans of at least 3 sides who have less regard for the truth than for their positions. 


 

[Murph]

The further I get into A Peace to End all Peace, it become more and more clear that "reformers" should never be allowed anywhere near political power.  Sir Edward Grey was a disaster pre-war.  Same for Asquith, Montegue, Milner, et al.  The start of the end of British-Turkish diplomacy can be traced to Gladstone who was arguably terrible for the British Empire.  

[Murph]

Now the book is talking about post war, and Churchill warned Lloyd George to get things done while they still had the troops to do it with, but LlG decided to delay.  Then by 1920 they were out of time.  

I also did not know that there were mutinies by the British Army in 1919/1920 demanding to be demobilized.  

[R011]

22 hours ago, Murph said:

Now the book is talking about post war, and Churchill warned Lloyd George to get things done while they still had the troops to do it with, but LlG decided to delay.  Then by 1920 they were out of time.  

I also did not know that there were mutinies by the British Army in 1919/1920 demanding to be demobilized.  

There was also one in India after WW2 because American troops with less time in theatre were being sent home  before British troops.  Apparently they wanted to delay sending British troops home so they'd be available for internal security as India became independent.

[Murph]

Wow, apparently the Brits were not pleased at having to stay on to do "Imperial policing" after the wars.  But most US troops were ready to go home as well.  

I have come to the conclusion that the reason the ME is so farked up can be laid to the feet of Lloyd George, and many useful idiots in the Foreign Office, India Office, and based in Cairo, they deluded themselves that Muslims wanted to be ruled by British masters.  

[Murph]

Any opinions on General Byng?  He seems like a decent commander compared to many British General officers.  

[R011]

On 10/8/2023 at 3:23 PM, Murph said:

Any opinions on General Byng?  He seems like a decent commander compared to many British General officers.  

A former Canadian Corps commander, he was well regarded enough tthat he was a  popular appointment as Governor General of Canada. Probably a more propular  general than Arthur Currie as Currie wsa criticised for allegedly being overly aggressive on the last day or so of the war.