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British Equipment And Generals Suck, Part Deux.


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I would rate Henry VIII as amongst the worst:

 

(and not for his 6 wifes, altough they way that came to be adds to this assesment)

 

Seems like an irresponsible, spoiled little brad, and a very violent one at that....

 

(i'll leave more details to the specialists)

Edited by Inhapi
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Seems like an irresponsible, spoiled little brad, and a very violent one at that....

I disagree.

 

Henry VIII establish the rise of the British Empire, by created the Royal Navy, establish royal shipyards, and encouraged shipbuilding. He was also a successful war leader.

 

In his youth Henry was a vigorous man, an accomplished sportsman, a musician, and was known for his learning and intelligence.

 

However, to quote Wiki

As he aged, Henry became severely obese and his health suffered, contributing to his death in 1547. He is frequently characterised in his later life as a lustful, egotistical, harsh and insecure king
Edited by Leo Niehorster
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Henry didnt really start the Royal Navy. There was a Navy as far back as Alfred, although it wasnt much more advanced than how the Romans and Viking's fought (basically board and kill). Henry V had an impressive fleet, though again, it was mainly for troop transport to get his Army to the continent. But he set up Royal Shipyards to build them.

 

Despite all that, and despite Drake and the expeditions to the Carribean, the Navy didnt really begin its long ascendancy til Charles II. Thats not to deprecate Henry VIII, but I think its subsequent success owes relatively little to him as a structure. If anyone, Id give more credit to Elizabeth I, because that would seem to be the period when mass production of naval guns really kicked off. Some archaeologists claim that (and the extraction of coal to power the smelting) was the real birth of the industrial revolution, and I think they might have a point, though it was a slow burn from then till when it really kicked off in the mid 18th Century.

 

All that said, I think Henry needs to be given credit for other things. He actually gave Britain an independence from Europe (and im not looking for Brexit parallel's, but many have), which made the Empire possible san's the approval of a pope. He probably ought to be given credit for modern Governance. He brought in Thomas Cromwell whom has had a shitty press for his role in the Ann Boleyn affair, but credit where its due, he also brought in modern systems of Government. Its been said that Cromwell was the father of the modern civil service, and there is some truth in that. I guess you could make a case that you can draw a line from Cromwell to Pepy's and the growth of the navy (and the civil service) under Charles II, and that would be fair. In that respect, Henry can be seen (and wanted to be) a modernizing influence, if in many ways some of his methods owned more to tyranny than enlightened monarchy. I think his Daughter's survival owes a lot to the systems of Governance he (or more accurately) Cromwell put in place.

 

I dont believe Henry ever lead troops personally in combat. He did win a fairly successful minor action, but I think we should be careful to say that made him a successful war leader. His subsequent actions in divorcing Catherine of Aragon I think put the realm in great jeopardy, and it was a millstone hung around the neck of Elizabeth I she never quite removed. I dont suppose she saw it as a burden, but it clearly was. I get the impression it was never really resolved till as late as James 1st.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith
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Henry didnt really start the Royal Navy. There was a Navy as far back as Alfred, although it wasnt much more advanced than how the Romans and Viking's fought (basically board and kill). Henry V had an impressive fleet, though again, it was mainly for troop transport to get his Army to the continent. But he set up Royal Shipyards to build them.

 

Despite all that, and despite Drake and the expeditions to the Carribean, the Navy didnt really begin its long ascendancy til Charles II. Thats not to deprecate Henry VIII, but I think its subsequent success owes relatively little to him as a structure. If anyone, Id give more credit to Elizabeth I, because that would seem to be the period when mass production of naval guns really kicked off. Some archaeologists claim that (and the extraction of coal to power the smelting) was the real birth of the industrial revolution, and I think they might have a point, though it was a slow burn from then till when it really kicked off in the mid 18th Century.

 

All that said, I think Henry needs to be given credit for other things. He actually gave Britain an independence from Europe (and im not looking for Brexit parallel's, but many have), which made the Empire possible san's the approval of a pope. He probably ought to be given credit for modern Governance. He brought in Thomas Cromwell whom has had a shitty press for his role in the Ann Boleyn affair, but credit where its due, he also brought in modern systems of Government. Its been said that Cromwell was the father of the modern civil service, and there is some truth in that. I guess you could make a case that you can draw a line from Cromwell to Pepy's and the growth of the navy (and the civil service) under Charles II, and that would be fair. In that respect, Henry can be seen (and wanted to be) a modernizing influence, if in many ways some of his methods owned more to tyranny than enlightened monarchy. I think his Daughter's survival owes a lot to the systems of Governance he (or more accurately) Cromwell put in place.

 

I dont believe Henry ever lead troops personally in combat. He did win a fairly successful minor action, but I think we should be careful to say that made him a successful war leader. His subsequent actions in divorcing Catherine of Aragon I think put the realm in great jeopardy, and it was a millstone hung around the neck of Elizabeth I she never quite removed. I dont suppose she saw it as a burden, but it clearly was. I get the impression it was never really resolved till as late as James 1st.

 

Didn't Henry VIII see that the security of England depended on a combination of a field army, a navy, and the coastal forts along the Downs (ie Castle Deal and its contemporaries)?

 

Three complimentary sets of plans: what the navy could not stop, the Downs forts could slow down, whilst the army moved in to finish the action.

Edited by DougRichards
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Of interest is that, if I was to ever make it to England, and unfortunately that will never happen, the five sites that I would wish to visit are: the HMS Belfast, the HMS Victory, the HMS Warrior, Bovington and Castle Deal.

 

Interestingly these represent the Royal Navy, the field Army and the coastal fortifications.

 

Yes I know that there is a lot more to see, but that is not going to happen.

 

Actually there is one more place, Midsomer County, but that would really be on the bucket list because there is no certainty that I would leave alive..... :)

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Henry didnt really start the Royal Navy. There was a Navy as far back as Alfred, although it wasnt much more advanced than how the Romans and Viking's fought (basically board and kill). Henry V had an impressive fleet, though again, it was mainly for troop transport to get his Army to the continent. But he set up Royal Shipyards to build them.

 

Despite all that, and despite Drake and the expeditions to the Carribean, the Navy didnt really begin its long ascendancy til Charles II. Thats not to deprecate Henry VIII, but I think its subsequent success owes relatively little to him as a structure. If anyone, Id give more credit to Elizabeth I, because that would seem to be the period when mass production of naval guns really kicked off. Some archaeologists claim that (and the extraction of coal to power the smelting) was the real birth of the industrial revolution, and I think they might have a point, though it was a slow burn from then till when it really kicked off in the mid 18th Century.

 

All that said, I think Henry needs to be given credit for other things. He actually gave Britain an independence from Europe (and im not looking for Brexit parallel's, but many have), which made the Empire possible san's the approval of a pope. He probably ought to be given credit for modern Governance. He brought in Thomas Cromwell whom has had a shitty press for his role in the Ann Boleyn affair, but credit where its due, he also brought in modern systems of Government. Its been said that Cromwell was the father of the modern civil service, and there is some truth in that. I guess you could make a case that you can draw a line from Cromwell to Pepy's and the growth of the navy (and the civil service) under Charles II, and that would be fair. In that respect, Henry can be seen (and wanted to be) a modernizing influence, if in many ways some of his methods owned more to tyranny than enlightened monarchy. I think his Daughter's survival owes a lot to the systems of Governance he (or more accurately) Cromwell put in place.

 

I dont believe Henry ever lead troops personally in combat. He did win a fairly successful minor action, but I think we should be careful to say that made him a successful war leader. His subsequent actions in divorcing Catherine of Aragon I think put the realm in great jeopardy, and it was a millstone hung around the neck of Elizabeth I she never quite removed. I dont suppose she saw it as a burden, but it clearly was. I get the impression it was never really resolved till as late as James 1st.

 

Didn't Henry VIII see that the security of England depended on a combination of a field army, a navy, and the coastal forts along the Downs (ie Castle Deal and its contemporaries)?

 

Three complimentary sets of plans: what the navy could not stop, the Downs forts could slow down, whilst the army moved in to finish the action.

 

 

Im not sure he thought about it that deeply. I would suspect it was many of his administrators thought it up and placed it in front of him to sign. From what ive read, Henry DID have ambitions to get Englands rightful lands on the continent back from the French. So I would think, if that were true, his mindset was more offensive than defensive. Which kind of explains part of what the Field of Cloth of Gold was all about. IMHO he was setting out his stall to be the most powerful leader in Europe, which I guess in some respect's he was.

If you are going to look for a modern example, he was kind of like Donald Trump I think. Lots of show, plent to say, full of swagger, but the main difference was that Henry was actually pretty damn good at picking administrators who knew their job.

I mean granted, he often executed them later, but.....

 

Been on Belfast and Victory, and spent many happy days in Bovington. But ive never been on warrior or Deal Fort. Ive been on a boat through Portsmouth harbour, around the Sea forts and past the fort at the entrance to the harbour though. That was pretty illuminating I can tell you. its possibly one of the few good days of education I had at school. :D

 

I think you have as much chance of finding Midsommer as you do Hardy's Wessex. :) Ironically I live a few miles away from Corston, which is phonetically identical to the Causton in the show, which is always been a bit of a laugh. There is of course Midsomer Norton as an option, if you like ex colliery towns. They hardly kill anyone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsomer_Norton

Edited by Stuart Galbraith
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Henry didnt really start the Royal Navy. ...But he set up Royal Shipyards to build them.

But that's the KEY thing. He setup shipyards and at the same time did they not start planning forestry preservation to make sure they had the oak for the ships? Making sure that there are yards to construct the nation's ships and thus the people to build them is a MAJOR part of having a navy.

 

 

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What made or broke a navy weren't the ships, but the ability to pay for them and their crews. The RN took off when the Bank of England was created, due to naval inferiority, from the wiki:

 

 

England's crushing defeat by France, the dominant naval power, in naval engagements culminating in the 1690 Battle of Beachy Head, became the catalyst for England rebuilding itself as a global power. England had no choice but to build a powerful navy. No public funds were available, and the credit of William III's government was so low in London that it was impossible for it to borrow the £1,200,000 (at 8% p.a.) that the government wanted.

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Henry didnt really start the Royal Navy. There was a Navy as far back as Alfred, although it wasnt much more advanced than how the Romans and Viking's fought (basically board and kill). Henry V had an impressive fleet, though again, it was mainly for troop transport to get his Army to the continent. But he set up Royal Shipyards to build them.

 

Despite all that, and despite Drake and the expeditions to the Carribean, the Navy didnt really begin its long ascendancy til Charles II. Thats not to deprecate Henry VIII, but I think its subsequent success owes relatively little to him as a structure. If anyone, Id give more credit to Elizabeth I, because that would seem to be the period when mass production of naval guns really kicked off. Some archaeologists claim that (and the extraction of coal to power the smelting) was the real birth of the industrial revolution, and I think they might have a point, though it was a slow burn from then till when it really kicked off in the mid 18th Century.

 

All that said, I think Henry needs to be given credit for other things. He actually gave Britain an independence from Europe (and im not looking for Brexit parallel's, but many have), which made the Empire possible san's the approval of a pope. He probably ought to be given credit for modern Governance. He brought in Thomas Cromwell whom has had a shitty press for his role in the Ann Boleyn affair, but credit where its due, he also brought in modern systems of Government. Its been said that Cromwell was the father of the modern civil service, and there is some truth in that. I guess you could make a case that you can draw a line from Cromwell to Pepy's and the growth of the navy (and the civil service) under Charles II, and that would be fair. In that respect, Henry can be seen (and wanted to be) a modernizing influence, if in many ways some of his methods owned more to tyranny than enlightened monarchy. I think his Daughter's survival owes a lot to the systems of Governance he (or more accurately) Cromwell put in place.

 

I dont believe Henry ever lead troops personally in combat. He did win a fairly successful minor action, but I think we should be careful to say that made him a successful war leader. His subsequent actions in divorcing Catherine of Aragon I think put the realm in great jeopardy, and it was a millstone hung around the neck of Elizabeth I she never quite removed. I dont suppose she saw it as a burden, but it clearly was. I get the impression it was never really resolved till as late as James 1st.

 

Didn't Henry VIII see that the security of England depended on a combination of a field army, a navy, and the coastal forts along the Downs (ie Castle Deal and its contemporaries)?

 

Three complimentary sets of plans: what the navy could not stop, the Downs forts could slow down, whilst the army moved in to finish the action.

 

 

Im not sure he thought about it that deeply. I would suspect it was many of his administrators thought it up and placed it in front of him to sign. From what ive read, Henry DID have ambitions to get Englands rightful lands on the continent back from the French. So I would think, if that were true, his mindset was more offensive than defensive. Which kind of explains part of what the Field of Cloth of Gold was all about. IMHO he was setting out his stall to be the most powerful leader in Europe, which I guess in some respect's he was.

If you are going to look for a modern example, he was kind of like Donald Trump I think. Lots of show, plent to say, full of swagger, but the main difference was that Henry was actually pretty damn good at picking administrators who knew their job.

I mean granted, he often executed them later, but.....

 

Been on Belfast and Victory, and spent many happy days in Bovington. But ive never been on warrior or Deal Fort. Ive been on a boat through Portsmouth harbour, around the Sea forts and past the fort at the entrance to the harbour though. That was pretty illuminating I can tell you. its possibly one of the few good days of education I had at school. :D

 

I think you have as much chance of finding Midsommer as you do Hardy's Wessex. :) Ironically I live a few miles away from Corston, which is phonetically identical to the Causton in the show, which is always been a bit of a laugh. There is of course Midsomer Norton as an option, if you like ex colliery towns. They hardly kill anyone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsomer_Norton

 

 

I know that Midsomer County is fictitious...... :D

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What made or broke a navy weren't the ships, but the ability to pay for them and their crews. The RN took off when the Bank of England was created, due to naval inferiority, from the wiki:

 

 

England's crushing defeat by France, the dominant naval power, in naval engagements culminating in the 1690 Battle of Beachy Head, became the catalyst for England rebuilding itself as a global power. England had no choice but to build a powerful navy. No public funds were available, and the credit of William III's government was so low in London that it was impossible for it to borrow the £1,200,000 (at 8% p.a.) that the government wanted.

 

Absolutely. I was reading a book not long ago by Andrew Lambert that came to exactly the same conclusion, that it was only when we had a modern tax system sorted out we were able to sustain a capable navy.

 

Ryan is quite right in one respect though, both Portsmouth and Chatham naval dockyards were built during his reign. But it would probably be accurate to see that as laying the bedrock for the future. We didnt really achieve much in the way of naval victories until much later. Despite the apparent technical superiority of English guns at the time of the Armada, we a achieved relatively little. It was mainly the weather that can take the credit for that deliverance.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith
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IMHO he was setting out his stall to be the most powerful leader in Europe, which I guess in some respect's he was.

 

HA!

 

 

Well as far as his armoured Codpiece, its unassailable truth. :D

4003bf6dc451180e353b80ea86452116.jpg

 

 

Thirty years ago, well maybe longer, I played American Football here in Australia. Part of the gear was a jock strap and cup - like a cricket box (box being an unfortunate term given the association with the cup and a box...). The cup was meant to stop an incapacitating injury from an opposing player's action. Well one of my fellow players, who is now head coach of that team, went overboard in demanding an extra large sized jockstrap and cup, not understanding that the cup was the same size no matter what size the strap. When that was pointed out to him, he sort of quietened down a bit. I still have a distant fakebook contact with him, but I do not think that I will raise it as his now wife (who was not the cheerleader with whom he was enjoying time at the time) should not read about that on the Bondi Raiders fakebook page.

 

Of course this is complicated because the cheerleader, when thirty five years ago was a member of the Christian youth fellowship that I was a leader, also remains a fakebook friend of his (but not of mine, even though more than half a lifetime ago I was a bit keen on her, but couldn't get the Springsteen tickets that could have lead both to having very different futures / present times,).

 

I wonder if any of Henry's wives ever checked out his armour?

Edited by DougRichards
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All this goes to show that human nature doesn't change very much. A codpiece means as much today as it always did. :D

 

Of course this is a form of display. Whether he had an impressive weapon or not is not recorded (and frankly I can stand not knowing) but clearly it was a display of virility, and hence power. Power to have children, power to influence Europe too I guess. Which as we saw was distinctly limited as it turned out, but that was clearly part of the message.

 

That and he probably didnt want a lance through the wedding tackle, and I cant fault him on that. Id have put Chobham armour on the bloody thing personally.

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IMHO he was setting out his stall to be the most powerful leader in Europe, which I guess in some respect's he was.

 

HA!

 

Well as far as his armoured Codpiece, its unassailable truth. :D

4003bf6dc451180e353b80ea86452116.jpg

 

Well, this is one of the suits of armor his counterpart at Cloth of Gold Field had:

 

img_6656.jpg?w=768&h=1152

 

All we know what happened to that king at that battle in the Lombard town of Pavia...

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What made or broke a navy weren't the ships, but the ability to pay for them and their crews. The RN took off when the Bank of England was created, due to naval inferiority, from the wiki:

 

 

England's crushing defeat by France, the dominant naval power, in naval engagements culminating in the 1690 Battle of Beachy Head, became the catalyst for England rebuilding itself as a global power. England had no choice but to build a powerful navy. No public funds were available, and the credit of William III's government was so low in London that it was impossible for it to borrow the £1,200,000 (at 8% p.a.) that the government wanted.

 

Absolutely. I was reading a book not long ago by Andrew Lambert that came to exactly the same conclusion,

 

 

 

Which book exactly ? Thanks

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Tell a lie, it was actually Ben Wilson. If you want one primer on the Royal Navy and the social change that gave birth to it, you should probably get this one.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Deep-Rise-Fall-British/dp/0753829207/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=royal+navy+history&qid=1554546344&s=gateway&sr=8-3

 

Im sure there may be better out there, but for this novice it truly changed the way I looked at the navy. For example, he describes it as the mobile borders of England. And of course it is, I just never looked at it that way before.

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All this goes to show that human nature doesn't change very much. A codpiece means as much today as it always did. :D

 

 

As the old joke (but based on facts) goes: male cricketeers used proteection for the genitalia 100 years before protection of their brain....

 

So far for men choosing priorities :-)

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All this goes to show that human nature doesn't change very much.

 

r. Power to have children, power to influence Europe too I guess. Which as we saw was distinctly limited as it turned out, but that was clearly part of the message.

 

Indeed, woman getting the blame in many cultures (partially even in our modern civilised western world) for infertility. Henry certainly did blame his wifes, but given the number he had....one has to wonder who realy had limited fertility :-) (i hope im not stepping too much into politics here)

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All this goes to show that human nature doesn't change very much.

 

r. Power to have children, power to influence Europe too I guess. Which as we saw was distinctly limited as it turned out, but that was clearly part of the message.

 

Indeed, woman getting the blame in many cultures (partially even in our modern civilised western world) for infertility. Henry certainly did blame his wifes, but given the number he had....one has to wonder who realy had limited fertility :-) (i hope im not stepping too much into politics here)

 

 

LOL on invention of the Brain :D

 

Oh im sure he was largely infertile, probably brought on by his excessive obesity. You then have to stop and wonder whether there was any truth to the accusations against Ann Boleyn of adultery. It would be an understandable solution to the heir to the throne firing blanks.

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All this goes to show that human nature doesn't change very much.

 

r. Power to have children, power to influence Europe too I guess. Which as we saw was distinctly limited as it turned out, but that was clearly part of the message.

 

Indeed, woman getting the blame in many cultures (partially even in our modern civilised western world) for infertility. Henry certainly did blame his wifes, but given the number he had....one has to wonder who realy had limited fertility :-) (i hope im not stepping too much into politics here)

 

 

Poor quality lead in his pencil, and what there was was pink instead of blue.

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Seems like an irresponsible, spoiled little brad, and a very violent one at that....

I disagree.

 

Henry VIII establish the rise of the British Empire, by created the Royal Navy, establish royal shipyards, and encouraged shipbuilding. He was also a successful war leader.

 

In his youth Henry was a vigorous man, an accomplished sportsman, a musician, and was known for his learning and intelligence.

 

However, to quote Wiki

As he aged, Henry became severely obese and his health suffered, contributing to his death in 1547. He is frequently characterised in his later life as a lustful, egotistical, harsh and insecure king

 

And he also had a song about him

:P Edited by Rick
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