Jump to content

The Insane Rationalizations, Bigotry And Hypocrisy Of The Right


T19
 Share

Recommended Posts

 

Exclusive: Kimberly Guilfoyle Left Fox News After Investigation Into Misconduct Allegations, Sources Say

Sources tell HuffPost that Guilfoyle, who is dating Donald Trump Jr., engaged in emotionally abusive behavior and showed colleagues personal photos of male genitalia.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • Replies 1.3k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

Oh how the mighty have fallen...

 

Saw this article a few days ago but was waiting for the results from tonight. The polls were spot on. Arpaio pulled in a measly 18% of the vote in today's primary. His political career is (hopefully) finally over.

 

 

Joe Arpaio's long goodbye: Redemption or 'kamikaze' mission?
By NICHOLAS RICCARDI
Aug. 24, 2018

 

FOUNTAIN HILLS, Ariz. (AP) — It was five days before ballots will be counted in his bid for the Republican nomination for U.S. Senate, and former Arizona lawman Joe Arpaio had no idea what he was doing.

 

The final days of a campaign are usually frantic, with candidates' every moment scheduled to ensure they meet as many voters as possible. But Arpaio had nothing planned Thursday until a 4:30 p.m. meeting.

 

"I ought to go to a Mexican restaurant and see how they treat me," Arpaio, 86, said as he sat in his strip mall office. So he and his aides piled into the newly-rented campaign bus in the latest stage of what is likely to be the controversial lawman's long goodbye.

 

Arpaio served six terms as sheriff of Maricopa County, which includes Phoenix. He won national acclaim and condemnation for his hardline policies. He jailed inmates in tents in the desert heat. He directed deputies to hunt people in the country illegally, a practice a court found to be racial profiling. He lost his 2016 re-election bid after being convicted of contempt of court for continuing that profiling. He was pardoned by President Trump last year.

 

Now he's disappointed some supporters with his erratic GOP Senate primary bid in which he lags badly in polls behind U.S. Rep. Martha McSally and former state Sen. Kelli Ward. Arpaio's legacy, they fear, will be splitting the conservative vote Tuesday, letting McSally, the favorite of establishment Republicans with whom Arpaio has long feuded, win the nomination.

 

"It is a kamikaze mission," said Constantine Querard, a political strategist and former Arpaio supporter who supports Ward. "The only question is, is it malpractice, or is the candidate in on it?"

 

The Republican nominee will most likely face Democratic U.S. Rep. Kyrsten Synema, a formidable opponent whose party hopes can flip the seat from the GOP. Arpaio, analysts say, has become a mere sideshow.

 

"No one really understands why he's in the race," said Stan Barnes, a Republican lobbyist. "The whisper around Arizona political circles is this is the kind of thing that an 86-year-old egomaniac would do because no one can control him."

 

As he climbed onto the bus emblazoned with his face and a classic Arizona desert landscape, Arpaio dismissed the criticism. He fumed that McSally, an Air Force Colonel, the country's first female combat pilot and a onetime Trump critic turned supporter, has gotten all the money and attention.

 

"They're going for her rather than me - the loyalty I showed these people, endorsing them, getting them jobs," Arpaio said in his gravelly monotone. "Anybody in their right mind, if they were hiring, somebody would hire me, not these two novices," he added of McSally and Ward.

 

The bus was largely empty. The driver was the campaign manager, Chris Hegstrom, Arpaio's former spokesman at the sheriff's department. In the back were a handful of volunteers, including a former Republican candidate for Missouri's U.S. Senate who finished eighth in that primary race and brought his pistol along during the ride.

 

Hegstrom angled the bus into a nearby Costco parking lot. He needed to pick up hot dogs for a campaign barbecue, and the former sheriff wanted to look for votes.

 

Arpaio climbed down, removed his snap-on tie and immediately caused a traffic jam.

 

Victor Antablian, 77, stopped his black Mercedes and climbed out to shake Arpaio's hand.

 

"What a guy!" he cried. He coaxed his wife Jan out -- she discovered Arpaio had grown up in a western Massachusetts town near her own. Both pledged to vote for the former sheriff.

 

As Arpaio's aides snapped pictures other cars slowed down. Arpaio waved at the gawkers.

 

"Don't wave to me, I don't wave to felons," shouted a man in another Mercedes before driving past. (Arpaio's conviction of contempt of court was a misdemeanor.)

 

Most onlookers were thrilled to see Arpaio. One took a sheet of campaign stickers to give to her extended family. Another said his parents owned a horse ranch near Arpaio's house. Leonardo Venegas, 38, gave Arpaio a straw hat to sign, saying it was in the style of his hometown of Puebla, Mexico.

 

Delighted, Arpaio told Venegas in broken Spanish that he lived in Mexico for four years while working for the Drug Enforcement Administration.

 

Venegas, an immigrant in the country legally, dismissed complaints that Arpaio has been racist to Latinos. "We have to recognize that a country or state without laws becomes like Mexico,' Venegas said in Spanish.

 

John Dach had just moved to Arizona from California, drawn by the state's reputation. "When I think of Arizona and the politicians and the voters, Joe Arpaio is one of the local celebrities you think of," he said.

 

Dach, 34, was surprised that the former sheriff was an underdog now. "He might be more popular outside the state than inside," Dach said.

 

As sheriff, Arpaio became an icon for hardline immigration supporters and raised millions of dollars nationwide. He traveled to Iowa and flirted with a presidential run. But his margins of victory back home shrunk as his legal troubles grew.

 

Maricopa County paid tens of millions of dollars in settlements against Arpaio's agency, which piled up unsolved sex crime cases as it focused on enforcement against people in the country illegally. Arpaio arrested one Republican county supervisor who criticized him (ultimately, no charges were filed). Much of the county's growing Latino population and others mobilized against him. Arpaio lost his re-election bid in 2016 by 12 percentage points even as Trump won Arizona.

 

"The longer he stayed, the more people grew tired of his antics," Barnes said.

 

Republican voters now wonder whether the former sheriff is too old -- he'd be the oldest person ever elected to a first term in the U.S. Senate and would be 92 when his term would end.

 

Scott Reed, 57, a contractor, shook Arpaio's hand and said: "You should be on a beach somewhere taking it easy."

 

"I'll race you around the block," Arpaio countered.

 

Reed revealed he was a Democrat. "I'll get your vote in November," Arpaio said.

 

Reed looked at the sheriff sympathetically. "Good luck to you, Joe," he said.

 

Energized by the largely supportive crowd, Arpaio climbed back on the bus. It headed for the Mexican restaurant.

 

The bus arrived too late for a big reaction - the lunch rush had ended. The owner greeted the sheriff warmly and asked what he wanted.

 

"Spaghetti and meatballs," Arpaio quipped. He got a bean and cheese tostada.

 

The scene inside was muted, a far cry from the Costco frenzy. A few people stopped to thank the former sheriff and snap pictures. Others averted their eyes.

 

After eating, Arpaio and his entourage piled back into the bus. Time to head back for that scheduled meeting.

 

"I don't feel like I'm in my 80s," a contemplative Arpaio said as the bus cut through the afternoon heat and haze. "I work continuously. I don't have any hobbies."

 

"I've got one more shot."

https://apnews.com/220f28c7b74046b6bbb0825c473132d5

Edited by Skywalkre
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

While not necessarily an "insane rationalization", I still found this an interesting example:

 

* The rational response to the election of Trump should have been holy shit, what have we done to piss off half the country to the point where they voted for him? How do we cool things down, minimize the damage hell cause im four years and persuade the other side to work with us to vote him out in 2020? Instead they double, triple and quadruple down on the things that got trump elected in the first place.

 

Also, the rational response on the right wouldn't have been unrestricted triumphalism, but rather the attempt to start a dialog with the other half of the country. Sure, "they don't want to listen" because they think that your arguments are "dumb and regressive". There is a common problem, right there.

 

 

* The rational response major uptick in Left Wing violence would be the same. ... Instead they continue to fan the flames, offering tacit support to violent radical groups like AntiFA.

 

Needless to say, it's not like The Right sees a need to tone down their own rhetoric to prevent further escalation. Instead, it's a matter of principle to exercise unrestricted freedom of expression, even if that alienates the others, but it's all "their fault". (Mind you, I have some sympathy for the notion that the Left stopped debating a good while ago, and rather resorts to slander whenever they hear an opinion they happen to disagree with; all I'm saying is that from a far distance the mirror image doesn't appear to be THAT much distorted.

 

 

* The rational response to continued record-breaking firearms and ammunition sales would be why the hell are our fellow citizens arming themselves to the teeth?

 

(Aside, great quote from a few years back, not sure who said it ... the record breaking firearms sales isnt indicative of people trying to make purchases ahead of a ban, its indicative of a people prepping to go to war against themselves)

 

...which may be exactly what they fear, which may be exactly why they're trying to impose as many limitations on gun sales as possible. It may be a misguided and futile attempt, but at the core it's a peaceful strategy that is perceived as an assault however.

 

 

* The rational response to the literal disappearance of Conservative voices in response to social media posts by Leftists would be Where have the Conservatives gone? Why arent our ideas being challenged anymore?

 

You're arguing against confirmation bias here. But confirmation bias is "normal", fighting it is a rate exception that requires a lot of mental discipline. Maybe you're not looking hard enough for examples on the left that are attempting exactly that. Just sayin'...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While not necessarily an "insane rationalization", I still found this an interesting example:

 

* The rational response to the election of Trump should have been holy shit, what have we done to piss off half the country to the point where they voted for him? How do we cool things down, minimize the damage hell cause im four years and persuade the other side to work with us to vote him out in 2020? Instead they double, triple and quadruple down on the things that got trump elected in the first place.

Also, the rational response on the right wouldn't have been unrestricted triumphalism, but rather the attempt to start a dialog with the other half of the country. Sure, "they don't want to listen" because they think that your arguments are "dumb and regressive". There is a common problem, right there.

 

The American Right has been dialoguing with the country for more than a century. And been shouted down for more than a century.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, the rational response on the right wouldn't have been unrestricted triumphalism, but rather the attempt to start a dialog with the other half of the country. Sure, "they don't want to listen" because they think that your arguments are "dumb and regressive". There is a common problem, right there.

You know where I work? Have you seen the fallout from people sky lining like James Damore at google?

 

Even so, I do still engage with my dwindling supply of liberal friends. More and more of them have gone full off the deep end.

 

 

Needless to say, it's not like The Right sees a need to tone down their own rhetoric to prevent further escalation.

rhetoric like arguing for free speech principles that gets you labeled a nazi?

 

Or rhetoric like due process that gets you labeled misogynist and rape apologist?

 

Instead, it's a matter of principle to exercise unrestricted freedom of expression, even if that alienates the others, but it's all "their fault".

See also, James Damore and Brett Weinstein. See the note about skylining and it's risks.

 

At some point I expect to get called to security with HR and let go because I'm too conservative. Until then it's a good job but I have resumes out.

Edited by rmgill
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The American Right has been dialoguing with the country for more than a century. And been shouted down for more than a century.

 

Case in point: an election campaign where 63 or so million citizens look at each other and ask “Did she (the Left presidential candidate) just call me an ‘irredeemable deplorable’ or was she talking about you”?

 

Also, I know that I haven’t been around in a while and have missed some things, but is it no longer considered bad form and exceptionally rude to carry others’ postings from one thread to another? Especially without notifying the post author of having done so?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't want to post in the other thread; also, I tried to get at something else entirely in this one.

Also, this stupid forum software doesn't copy the original poster's ID when you click the "quote" button, then mark all, copy it, and paste it into your reply in a different thread. Finally, to me it wasn't specifically about you or the finer points of your post, but to illustrate the general sentiment.

 

If you find that offensive, I'm sorry ... though I don't really know what I should or could have done, except dropping you a personal message (which I try to avoid since I rarely follow them up, and the board doesn't tell me your email address (which it shouldn't); note that you too decided to air your grievance in public rather than contacting me by PM, so I guess we both agree that PMs aren't the solution)).

 

As a general remark (and accepting the danger of sounding like a passive-aggressive a$$hole, which I totally try not to be) I'd say however that as soon as you post something anywhere on the internet, you implicitly consent to being quoted about just anywhere. The nature of electronic communication is that you lose control over your message as soon as you press that send/submit button.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

While not necessarily an "insane rationalization", I still found this an interesting example:

 

* The rational response to the election of Trump should have been holy shit, what have we done to piss off half the country to the point where they voted for him? How do we cool things down, minimize the damage hell cause im four years and persuade the other side to work with us to vote him out in 2020? Instead they double, triple and quadruple down on the things that got trump elected in the first place.

Also, the rational response on the right wouldn't have been unrestricted triumphalism, but rather the attempt to start a dialog with the other half of the country. Sure, "they don't want to listen" because they think that your arguments are "dumb and regressive". There is a common problem, right there.

 

The American Right has been dialoguing with the country for more than a century. And been shouted down for more than a century.

 

Have they? In the last three decades I can't really pinpoint any serious efforts. Some on here point back to Reagan being one such person capable of engaging successfully with the other side. I'm too young to have any memory of this. On the political front every R POTUS since him (and every major R politician) has failed horribly in this regard. Along those lines the American Right has been really silent at selling their point (if there's even a cognizant one) regarding major issues in recent years (such as health care, reform of which has been a major point I focus on here on TN).

 

Outside of politicians I can't think of any serious academics/writers/etc. who had the charisma to make it outside of Conservative echo chambers (every decent one someone has pointed to here on TN over the years is usually someone I had never heard of til that point). Honestly the lone example in this area I can think of who has made an impact is Jordan Peterson, a Canadian, who by his own admission wouldn't label himself a Conservative (in American terms).

 

Right here on TN dialogue is basically dead even among folks on the same side of the spectrum. Don't toe the line with certain posters' view of what real Conservatism is and you're branded as supporting Liberals. That behavior fits in perfectly with the spirit of this thread.

Edited by Skywalkre
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Don't toe the line with certain posters' view of what real Conservatism is and you're branded as supporting Liberals."

 

Nonsense. Shep is a religious conservative, I'm a moderately socially liberal atheist. We're able to agree on some points and glide past each other on difference with ZERO umbrage. We get along so well that we drove to the Range event at PFT from Atlanta to West Virginia and it was a nice pleasant conversation ranging over topics with some disagreement but no anger, ill will or issues. He's a perfectly reasonable, acceptable and upstanding fellow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Typical, the only acceptable debate is accepting the group think. Sorry, I can agree and disagree with many members here. Sometimes it gets warm in the process but my beliefs are my beliefs and I reserve the right to defend them, with inconvenient facts. Crying "whataboutism!" is the gutless response of those who don't like the inconvenient facts. I won't play on the other side's playing field, it's a rigged game for suckers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally agree, as long a both sides are willing to have a conversation. I tend to not do groupthink, I was given a brain for a reason, plus I like being a contrarian.

"Don't toe the line with certain posters' view of what real Conservatism is and you're branded as supporting Liberals."

Nonsense. Shep is a religious conservative, I'm a moderately socially liberal atheist. We're able to agree on some points and glide past each other on difference with ZERO umbrage. We get along so well that we drove to the Range event at PFT from Atlanta to West Virginia and it was a nice pleasant conversation ranging over topics with some disagreement but no anger, ill will or issues. He's a perfectly reasonable, acceptable and upstanding fellow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Support your argument, and don't move the goalposts when you lose it, don't be a troll, and you are welcome to argue any position you like.

 

Cry "racist/sexist/whatever" when you start losing, start moving the goalposts, etc, and I will call you out for it. I'm here for argument (logical, rational), not abuse. Not lessons on getting hit on the head. MOST posters here understand this. A few don't, and similarly can't abide by the outlined rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed!

Support your argument, and don't move the goalposts when you lose it, don't be a troll, and you are welcome to argue any position you like.

 

Cry "racist/sexist/whatever" when you start losing, start moving the goalposts, etc, and I will call you out for it. I'm here for argument (logical, rational), not abuse. Not lessons on getting hit on the head. MOST posters here understand this. A few don't, and similarly can't abide by the outlined rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Don't toe the line with certain posters' view of what real Conservatism is and you're branded as supporting Liberals."

 

Nonsense. Shep is a religious conservative, I'm a moderately socially liberal atheist. We're able to agree on some points and glide past each other on difference with ZERO umbrage. We get along so well that we drove to the Range event at PFT from Atlanta to West Virginia and it was a nice pleasant conversation ranging over topics with some disagreement but no anger, ill will or issues. He's a perfectly reasonable, acceptable and upstanding fellow.

Nonsense? Have you seen how DKTanker responds to many posters on here if he disagrees with them? He's the most blatant (and consistent) example but there are others. If it's also nonsense then what else explains the numerous posters who have left the ranks of TN over the years? Just a few days ago we had a brief exchange in one thread about the loss of civility (and the lack of moderation) here on TN. I don't think my claim is nonsense by any means.

 

That comment isn't painting every exchange in that manner. Like you I have civil exchanges with certain posters where we're clearly not on the same page. The point is, though, that regarding dialogue the quality of such to me has certainly deteriorated here on TN since I first joined nearly two decades ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

"Don't toe the line with certain posters' view of what real Conservatism is and you're branded as supporting Liberals."

 

Nonsense. Shep is a religious conservative, I'm a moderately socially liberal atheist. We're able to agree on some points and glide past each other on difference with ZERO umbrage. We get along so well that we drove to the Range event at PFT from Atlanta to West Virginia and it was a nice pleasant conversation ranging over topics with some disagreement but no anger, ill will or issues. He's a perfectly reasonable, acceptable and upstanding fellow.

Nonsense? Have you seen how DKTanker responds to many posters on here if he disagrees with them? He's the most blatant (and consistent) example but there are others. If it's also nonsense then what else explains the numerous posters who have left the ranks of TN over the years? Just a few days ago we had a brief exchange in one thread about the loss of civility (and the lack of moderation) here on TN. I don't think my claim is nonsense by any means.

 

That comment isn't painting every exchange in that manner. Like you I have civil exchanges with certain posters where we're clearly not on the same page. The point is, though, that regarding dialogue the quality of such to me has certainly deteriorated here on TN since I first joined nearly two decades ago.

 

 

Like I wrote recently in another thread: I've consistently voted center-right since I was 18 and I'm considered a hawkish conservative among my friends and relatives.

 

Yet on TankNet, over the years, I was called leftist, "leftist vermin", communist, antisemite, Honnecker (sic) and many other such nonsense.

 

I can only imagine how warped the political landscape in the US must be to drive people into a mindset where everyone left of them is a communist, but it certainly has an effect on taking people like DKTanker or Murph seriously in any discussion.

 

I've said it before, it's very much like the Democratic Underground in 2002 or so, only on the right side of the political spectrum. People are having a political rage-fest, constantly reinforcing one another while they indulge in their fever dreams of Soros-funded communist insurgencies.

Edited by Der Zeitgeist
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

I can only imagine how warped the political landscape in the US must be to drive people into a mindset where everyone left of them is a communist, but it certainly has an effect on taking people like DKTanker or Murph seriously in any discussion.

 

No, its people who advocate for socialist views which makes them socialist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

"Don't toe the line with certain posters' view of what real Conservatism is and you're branded as supporting Liberals."

 

Nonsense. Shep is a religious conservative, I'm a moderately socially liberal atheist. We're able to agree on some points and glide past each other on difference with ZERO umbrage. We get along so well that we drove to the Range event at PFT from Atlanta to West Virginia and it was a nice pleasant conversation ranging over topics with some disagreement but no anger, ill will or issues. He's a perfectly reasonable, acceptable and upstanding fellow.

Nonsense? Have you seen how DKTanker responds to many posters on here if he disagrees with them? He's the most blatant (and consistent) example but there are others. If it's also nonsense then what else explains the numerous posters who have left the ranks of TN over the years? Just a few days ago we had a brief exchange in one thread about the loss of civility (and the lack of moderation) here on TN. I don't think my claim is nonsense by any means.

 

That comment isn't painting every exchange in that manner. Like you I have civil exchanges with certain posters where we're clearly not on the same page. The point is, though, that regarding dialogue the quality of such to me has certainly deteriorated here on TN since I first joined nearly two decades ago.

 

 

Like I wrote recently in another thread: I've consistently voted center-right since I was 18 and I'm considered a hawkish conservative among my friends and relatives.

 

Yet on TankNet, over the years, I was called leftist, "leftist vermin", communist, antisemite, Honnecker (sic) and many other such nonsense.

 

I can only imagine how warped the political landscape in the US must be to drive people into a mindset where everyone left of them is a communist, but it certainly has an effect on taking people like DKTanker or Murph seriously in any discussion.

 

I've said it before, it's very much like the Democratic Underground in 2002 or so, only on the right side of the political spectrum. People are having a political rage-fest, constantly reinforcing one another while they indulge in their fever dreams of Soros-funded communist insurgencies.

 

Perhaps the center-right is different in your country than this one? What position is center and what position is right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So... this:

 

 

"Don't toe the line with certain posters' view of what real Conservatism is and you're branded as supporting Liberals."

Nonsense. Shep is a religious conservative, I'm a moderately socially liberal atheist. We're able to agree on some points and glide past each other on difference with ZERO umbrage. We get along so well that we drove to the Range event at PFT from Atlanta to West Virginia and it was a nice pleasant conversation ranging over topics with some disagreement but no anger, ill will or issues. He's a perfectly reasonable, acceptable and upstanding fellow.

Nonsense? Have you seen how DKTanker responds to many posters on here if he disagrees with them? He's the most blatant (and consistent) example but there are others. If it's also nonsense then what else explains the numerous posters who have left the ranks of TN over the years? Just a few days ago we had a brief exchange in one thread about the loss of civility (and the lack of moderation) here on TN. I don't think my claim is nonsense by any means.

 

That comment isn't painting every exchange in that manner. Like you I have civil exchanges with certain posters where we're clearly not on the same page. The point is, though, that regarding dialogue the quality of such to me has certainly deteriorated here on TN since I first joined nearly two decades ago.

 

 

Was turned into this by you:

 

 

 

WAAAAAAH!

'e's good!

 

 

I disagree. I'm providing examples. I'm trying to engage. And that's... whining?

 

Thanks for proving my point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Don't toe the line with certain posters' view of what real Conservatism is and you're branded as supporting Liberals."

 

Nonsense. Shep is a religious conservative, I'm a moderately socially liberal atheist. We're able to agree on some points and glide past each other on difference with ZERO umbrage. We get along so well that we drove to the Range event at PFT from Atlanta to West Virginia and it was a nice pleasant conversation ranging over topics with some disagreement but no anger, ill will or issues. He's a perfectly reasonable, acceptable and upstanding fellow.

Nonsense? Have you seen how DKTanker responds to many posters on here if he disagrees with them? He's the most blatant (and consistent) example but there are others. If it's also nonsense then what else explains the numerous posters who have left the ranks of TN over the years? Just a few days ago we had a brief exchange in one thread about the loss of civility (and the lack of moderation) here on TN. I don't think my claim is nonsense by any means.

 

That comment isn't painting every exchange in that manner. Like you I have civil exchanges with certain posters where we're clearly not on the same page. The point is, though, that regarding dialogue the quality of such to me has certainly deteriorated here on TN since I first joined nearly two decades ago.

Like I wrote recently in another thread: I've consistently voted center-right since I was 18 and I'm considered a hawkish conservative among my friends and relatives.

 

Yet on TankNet, over the years, I was called leftist, "leftist vermin", communist, antisemite, Honnecker (sic) and many other such nonsense.

 

I can only imagine how warped the political landscape in the US must be to drive people into a mindset where everyone left of them is a communist, but it certainly has an effect on taking people like DKTanker or Murph seriously in any discussion.

 

I've said it before, it's very much like the Democratic Underground in 2002 or so, only on the right side of the political spectrum. People are having a political rage-fest, constantly reinforcing one another while they indulge in their fever dreams of Soros-funded communist insurgencies.

Perhaps the center-right is different in your country than this one? What position is center and what position is right?
In Spain, my belief in small, limited government puts me on the extreme right, right next to the nazis, who as we know, were all about small government. Go figure.

 

I think that the European L-R spectrum, with fascism and communism at the extremes, is quite different from the American one, which is more of a big govt Vs small govt. But unfortunately it seems to be drifting more toward the European model.

Edited by Mikel2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...