Companion Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 (edited) Starting a new thread just not to derail the NK Tank thread into something other than tanks proper.Tank part: http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=31325&p=1025053 Maybe I should post arty part in WOTT forum? Ok so here's long awaited second part of NK war museum report. (I know you didn't. Just say you did, lol)Original article in Korean: http://www.jajuminbo.net/sub_read.html?uid=13215§ion=sc38 Again, words of caution for readers and translators:The SK reporter here is by no means an military analyst. To add to the problem, he also is a quite notorious pro-NK writer. So this means he is often parroting what he heard from museum guides word for word and describes them in most favorable light possible for NK. Here, I'll forgo translating all that crap and just list interesting bits of info from the article. I also discarded bits where the author quoted sources other than NK museum. ------------------- The list concerns only those shown in the museum. Thus, if something is not listed here, that does not necessarily mean it's not in the actual army inventory. PCs 1. BTR clone, APC mod. 1969 "69". Formerly known as "66" (though I don't think I heard that name either) The article implies that NK uses simple number without letter prefixes for PC model names.2 crews, 8 dismounts 2. APC mod. 1973 "323". Formerly known as VTT-323. Current mainstay of NK mech inf. 2 crews, 12 dismounts, turret with twin 12.7mm MG and quadruple MANPADS tubes. Range of the MANPADS: 5km for target moving away, 8km for target moving inManeuver training picture posted in the article does not show any MANPADS installed. 3. APC mod. Juche 98 (mod. 2009) "Junma-Le" Pronounce "Le" as you would speak French. 9 dismounts, turret with two 14.5mm MG and "computerized FCS," six 81mm smoke grenades, NBC protection. Artilleries SPG: 103mm SPG mod. 1972 (what 103mm? typo?)152mm SPG mod. 1972170mm SPG mod. 1973 "Juchepo" (literally "Juche-cannon") formerly known as M1978 Koksan. Was exported to Iran during Iran-Iraq war. First shown to public in 1985 parade.100mm SPG mod. 1974. 7 crews, gun range 27km130mm SPG mod. 1974122mm SPG mod. 1976122mm SPG mod. 1978170mm SPG mod. 1983 "Juchepo" both 170mm guns are called the same. 9 crews, gun range 40km, 60km with RAP. Mysterious "War stock of special ammunition" was mentioned. SP-Mortar: 82mm mod. 1976120mm mod. 1978140mm mod. 1981 Towed-AAA: six-barrel 30mm mod. 1991. 5 crews, range 4km Rocket Artillery: 200mm 4 tubes mod. 1968122mm 30 tubes mod. 1973122mm 40 tubes mod. 1973240mm 12 tubes mod. 1984240mm 18 tubes mod. 1984122mm 40 tubes mod. 1990240mm 22 tubes mod. 1990 Unspecified 122mm rockets have range 20.7km. Unspecified 240mm rockets have 50.3km. Extended range rockets available for both calibers.240mm precision munition for point targets produced since 1984 The reporter specifically mentioned that he couldn't find any 107mm rocket system in the museum. (fishy?) Not in the museum but additionally mentioned are: New 122mm 8 tubes, shown in 2013 April 15th paradeNew 240mm 40 tubes.122mm 18 tubes, in service with paramilitary reserve corps.New 300mm 12 tubes, no picture or other info available.122mm 22 tubes. 5 pieces of this system are mentioned in the article as responsible for "Bombardment of Yeonpyeong" incedent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong SP-recoilless gun 370mm 3 tubes mod, 1984, mounted on 10-wheel PC, 5 crews, range intentionally undisclosed. Pictures from the article: APC "69" APC "323" APC "Junma-Le" 170mm Juchepo. 2013 March 12th, Kim Jong-un visiting 641st Corps. 100mm mod. 1974 170mm Juchepo mod. 1983. 2013 April 15th parade. 122mm 30 tubes mod. 1973. 2013 April 15th parade 122mm 40 tubes mod. 1990, with 40 reserve ammo and loading mechanism on 8 wheeled mount. 2013 April 15th parade. New 122mm 12 tubes. 2013 April 15th parade 122mm 24 tubes mod.1973. 2008 Sep. 9th paramilitary corps parade. Note two MANPADS 122mm 18 tubes towed by collective farm tractor. 2011 Sep. 9th paramilitary corps parade 240mm 22 tubes mod.1990. 2012 April 15th parade New 240mm 40 tubes. 2013 March 13th live fire training(I'm thinking this picture might be that of 122mm 40 tubes...) PS: How do I correct the ugly typo in the title? Edited July 15, 2013 by Companion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max H Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Thanks for the translation! Shame about the koksan, I'll miss the dirty jokes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geronimo Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 APC "69" Awesome, thanks! Only that Type (19)69 designator for the 8x8 APC sounds fishy since the type was only introduced around 2010. And the Soviet BTR-80 where it's based on exists only since 1982. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geronimo Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 NK 240mm 40 tubes.jpg New 240mm 40 tubes. 2013 March 13th live fire training(I'm thinking this picture might be that of 122mm 40 tubes...) That's indeed a 122mm MRL so that should be the mod. 1990 then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geronimo Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 122mm 24 tubes mod.1973. 2008 Sep. 9th paramilitary corps parade. Note two MANPADS Looks to me like a variant of the Chinese Type 63 of 107mm, only with 4 rows of 6 tubes instead of 3 rows of 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Companion Posted July 14, 2013 Author Share Posted July 14, 2013 122mm 24 tubes mod.1973. 2008 Sep. 9th paramilitary corps parade. Note two MANPADS Looks to me like a variant of the Chinese Type 63 of 107mm, only with 4 rows of 6 tubes instead of 3 rows of 4. The picture descriptions are all as appears on the original article. I think the reporter is trying to match what he saw in the museum with pictures he could safely post because picture taking was prohibited within the museum proper. (this applies to tanks posting as well) But - I'll add this to the original post - he did wrote that he expected to see 107mm rockets in the museum but couldn't find any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Companion Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 APC "69" Awesome, thanks! Only that Type (19)69 designator for the 8x8 APC sounds fishy since the type was only introduced around 2010. And the Soviet BTR-80 where it's based on exists only since 1982. Damn, missed this bit too - reporter wrote that this PC was formerly known to the West as "66." Any idea on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikkiyn Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Cool pictures. Why a manpad on almost every vehicle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geronimo Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 103mm SPG mod. 1972 (what 103mm? typo?) I suppose that must be 130mm. New 300mm 12 tubes, no picture or other info available. That appears to be the 9A52 "Smerch" (BM-30). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Companion Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 New 300mm 12 tubes, no picture or other info available. That appears to be the 9A52 "Smerch" (BM-30). The picture in the original article is indeed Smerch and the reporter doesn't claim otherwise. It was included in the article just to give the readers feeling of how powerful NK version of 300mm system will be, hence why I didn't include the picture in the original post. (remember, the reporter is extremely pro-NK in his tone sometimes to a degree of propaganda) To quote the reporter, the rumored 300mm NK-produced system was nowhere to be found in the museum, and it seems the tour guide didn't give any information/propaganda about it either.Its existence might well be just a rumor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geronimo Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 (edited) Damn, missed this bit too - reporter wrote that this PC was formerly known to the West as "66." Any idea on that? I never heard a "Western" (DOD) designator "66" or "M-1966". Maybe "APC 69" was a typo as well and it must be "APC 96" (APC mod. 1996). That would make more sense even though it would mean that this 8x8 APC was in service 14 years before it was seen for the first time. Edit: I forgot to mention that the picture from the article does not show the NK vehicle (as above) but the Russian-made BTR-80A! Edited July 15, 2013 by geronimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Companion Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 Damn, missed this bit too - reporter wrote that this PC was formerly known to the West as "66." Any idea on that? I never heard a "Western" (DOD) designator "66" or "M-1966". Maybe "APC 69" was a typo as well and it must be "APC 96" (APC mod. 1996). That would make more sense even though it would mean that this 8x8 APC was in service 14 years before it was seen for the first time. Edit: I forgot to mention that the picture from the article does not show the NK vehicle (as above) but the Russian-made BTR-80A! You're correct, it definitely looks like BTR-80A ...Now I want to pluck out his hopeless brain and somehow dissect his pictorial memories myself. He specifically mentioned in the article that this APC model, whatever it is, is a year 1969 design and that this PC is on exhibition at the museum. Then, suddenly he quotes "US military specialists" for its performance rather than using whatever was written on the museum info panel (maybe there wasn't any)And the quote is summed up as "max speed land: 90km/h, water: 10km/h, range: 600km, armament: 14.5mm and 7.62mm attached to a turret."Now, if it was in the museum and he personally saw the vehicle, he cannot possibly make such an obvious mistake as mis-identifying twin 14.5mm for standard 14.5mm+7.62mm. Furthermore, in an attempt to present NK models in favorable light, he boasted one of the advantages of APC 323 as having one more 12.7mm than most APCs of other countries, which normally have just one HMG on pintle mount. Considering that, he couldn't have missed the opportunity to brag about APC 69 if it really had twin 14.5mm. Or the memory was simply overshadowed by more impressive artillery inventories. Oh and the Juchepo (Koksan) was, according to him, not revealed to public until 12 years after introduction, so I wouldn't be surprised if similar happened to other weapon systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geronimo Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 He specifically mentioned in the article that this APC model, whatever it is, is a year 1969 design and that this PC is on exhibition at the museum. Then, suddenly he quotes "US military specialists" for its performance rather than using whatever was written on the museum info panel (maybe there wasn't any)And the quote is summed up as "max speed land: 90km/h, water: 10km/h, range: 600km, armament: 14.5mm and 7.62mm attached to a turret." My best guess would be the BTR-60PB then. I know NK has the type in service but pictures are quite rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcello Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 1. BTR clone, APC mod. 1969 "69". Formerly known as "66" The closest match would indeed be the BTR-60, but this would be the first time they claimed local production AFAIK. 2. APC mod. 1973 "323". Formerly known as VTT-323. Current mainstay of NK mech inf. 2 crews, 12 dismounts, turret with twin 12.7mm MG and quadruple MANPADS tubes. All sources list twin 14.5mm (and judging from the pictures a 7.62mm coax cannot be ruled out) or single 14.5mm + 7.62mm. First time that a twin 12.7mm is claimed.Lacking a good close up high res shot is hard to tell for sure. APC mod. Juche 98 (mod. 2009) "Junma-Le" Pronounce "Le" as you would speak French. 9 dismounts, turret with two 14.5mm MG and "computerized FCS," A computerized FC for a twin 14.5mm? When most of their T-62s are still without it ? SP-Mortar: 82mm mod. 1976120mm mod. 1978140mm mod. 1981 ? Really, their artillery inventory must be an headache to sort out. They have at least four chassis carrying several types of guns each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geronimo Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 All sources list twin 14.5mm (and judging from the pictures a 7.62mm coax cannot be ruled out) The 7.62mm coax is mounted above the 14.5mm MGs if I'm not mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geronimo Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 (edited) Oh and the Juchepo (Koksan) was, according to him, not revealed to public until 12 years after introduction, so I wouldn't be surprised if similar happened to other weapon systems. Apparently it did happen: the Juchepo mod. 1983 is the most modern system accoring to that list whereas the US DOD has allocated artillery systems with M-1991, M-1992 etc. codes. Below some grab screens from a video from 1992: Edited July 15, 2013 by geronimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geronimo Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 (edited) New 122mm 12 tubes. 2013 April 15th parade I found two designators for this one and another new MRL: Sonyon-ho and Nyomaeng-ho but I don't know which one is which Multiple-launch rocket systems “Sonyon-ho" and “Nyomaeng-ho" manufactured with the assistance of school youth and children and members of the Democratic Women’s Union of Korea (DWUK) across the country were presented to units of the Korean People’s Army (KPA) with due ceremony at Hamhung Square in South Hamgyong Province on Thursday to mark the 80th anniversary of the KPA. http://theatlantic.tumblr.com/post/21728050841/north-korea-thanks-its-schoolchildren-for-building Edited July 16, 2013 by geronimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Companion Posted July 16, 2013 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 New 122mm 12 tubes. 2013 April 15th parade I found two designators for this one and another new MRL: Sonyon-ho and Nyomaeng-ho but I don't know which one is which Multiple-launch rocket systems “Sonyon-ho" and “Nyomaeng-ho" manufactured with the assistance of school youth and children and members of the Democratic Women’s Union of Korea (DWUK) across the country were presented to units of the Korean People’s Army (KPA) with due ceremony at Hamhung Square in South Hamgyong Province on Thursday to mark the 80th anniversary of the KPA. http://theatlantic.tumblr.com/post/21728050841/north-korea-thanks-its-schoolchildren-for-building The two names are propaganda names, not model numbers.The rocket systems are (supposedly) product of scrap metal collection campaign. The pieces "delivered" by women's union is called "Nyomaeng-ho" while those from youth group is called "Sonyon-ho" Damn, this romanized Korean is so chaotic that it's hard to decipher what original Korean word is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geronimo Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Wonderfull: besides the factory, military and DOD designators we now have the propaganda designators. The article talks about two systems whereas only the one on the "323" chassis is shown. What are the chances that the 2nd one is the trailer-mounted MRL with 2x9 launch tubes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Companion Posted July 18, 2013 Author Share Posted July 18, 2013 (edited) Wonderfull: besides the factory, military and DOD designators we now have the propaganda designators. The article talks about two systems whereas only the one on the "323" chassis is shown. What are the chances that the 2nd one is the trailer-mounted MRL with 2x9 launch tubes? If you are talking about Nyomaengho and Sonyonho, AFAIK there are no pictures of Sonyonho. It could be anything really but it is likely that they are essentially same model because both are product of same scrap metal collection campaingn. To make an analogy, it's as if someone donates money to produce certain number of Abrams tanks and the resulting tanks are called after the name of benefactor. i.e. John Doe-ho (It's more of a requisition than donation in NK case though) IIRC there was another "Nyomaeng-ho" batch back in 2005, but those were tanks. Reason behind the name was same: the tanks were supposedly made from scrap metal collected by women's union. Edited July 18, 2013 by Companion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcmtank Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 Anyone know the name of this, been doing my nut for a few years now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Companion Posted July 20, 2013 Author Share Posted July 20, 2013 Anyone know the name of this, been doing my nut for a few years now? AFAIK no info. Just wild speculations. The name Junma-Le is written as 준마-ㄹin Korean. Here, "ㄹ" is a 4th letter of Korean alphabet, consonant part. Unless NK assigned some unknown special meaning to this "ㄹ," there very well can be 준마-ㄱ, 준마-ㄴ, and 준마-ㄷ preceding 준마-ㄹ.The above six wheel APC could be one of those I'm thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EchoFiveMike Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Cool pictures. Why a manpad on almost every vehicle?I should think that'd be obvious for NK vehicles. S/F....Ken M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geronimo Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Below some grab screens from a video from 1992: Here's the URL for the video on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Yp-uB1qLY Unfortunately the 120mm "combination-gun" - similar to Russia's 2S9 NONA - is not shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geronimo Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Question: what is "model" in Korean (phonetic spelling). In Russian for example it's "obrazets" and in Chinese "shyh". Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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