Visualised T. O. E.

[Argus]

That's some nice work mate.

 

Fritz, I've got access to a couple of 3D printers and people skilled in their use, hobby grade kit, but built and operated by experienced enthusiasts. I'm heading down there tomorrow anyway, and I'd be more than happy to see about trying them out in plastic

 

I'll PM you my email.

 

Shane

[Leo Niehorster]

Some 1941 USSR tank companies.

 

Just found this, from

Zaloga & Ness - Companion to the Red Army 1939-1945, page 73:

(Table 2.7, Tank Brigade, TO 10/75-83), from August 1941).

 

You will note that are almost no softskins in the tank companies, which makes things easier.

 

 

 

[Fritz]

Thanks, far better than the nothing I have currently

 

Seems much different than the German company, it has nothing organic except the tanks.

 

Haven't thought about it before but yesterday I was reading the articles on Arab armies that Kenneth posted and they mentioned how the Soviets did all their maintenance at the higher levels whereas western armies also had much lower level maintenance capabilities. I guess we're seeing the same here.

[Fritz]

Also, since there are no specifics on the subdivision of the company, if it has 10 tanks then the logical subdivision would be 1 commander and 3 plts of 3 tanks? Or 2 plts of 4 tanks?...

[Marek Tucan]

Heavy company (5):

CO (1 tank)

2x Heavy Tank platoon (2 tanks)

 

Medium / Light comapny (10):

CO (1 tank)

3x platoon (3 tanks)

 

Medium / Light tank company (7):

CO (1 tank)

2x platoon (3 tanks)

[Fritz]

Heavy company (5):

CO (1 tank)

2x Heavy Tank platoon (2 tanks)

 

Medium / Light comapny (10):

CO (1 tank)

3x platoon (3 tanks)

 

Medium / Light tank company (7):

CO (1 tank)

2x platoon (3 tanks)

 

Thanks, source?

I don't know the russian terms yet so I can't do a lot of research myself, I'll ask a friend for help. I can search for "танковая рота" but not for say "tank company organic maintenance units" or similar more complicated stuff.

[Marek Tucan]

Sources here and there, odds and pieces Most of all, CZ army used Soviet organisation after the war.

 

note that in some cases, esp. with losses, they used stuff like SU-85 in the role of tanks, with reduced tank companies. The most extreme case I saw was tank company consisting of a command vehicle (T-34/85), 1st platoon (one T-34/85) and 2nd platoon (one T-34/76)... After few months of figting without much replacements.

 

For Mediums you can actually use TRADOC field manuals on OPFOR (FM-100-something).

next time I am in CZ I may remember to do some scans on Czechoslovakian armored Bde in USSR, they list the supply etc. vehicles as well.

[Marek Tucan]

Kay, here goes: Tank Corps Tank Brigade Tank Bn, October 1945 (CZK):

HQ platoon: 2x medium tank

2x Tank Company, each:

HQ (1x Medium tank)

3x Tank Platoon (3x Medium Tank)

Auxillary platoon (composition unknown)

 

Will be able to give you more when I get to books.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Tuccy

[Fritz]

Well, ideally I need the data by year. And in 1941-42 the Soviet TOE changed almost every month or so based on what was actually available. So it's a mish-mash.

[Fritz]

-

Edited May 7, 2013 by Fritz

[Fritz]

-

Edited May 7, 2013 by Fritz

[Fritz]

 

Took a while to finish.

 

Getting ready to do a 1941 StuG battalion, found too late that the Famo + 22t tank trailer is only included in separate batteries. Still, such epic vehicles deserved to be done at any rate (and they are needed for maintenance companies anyway).

[Marek Tucan]

I can sense yet more awesomness incoming !

[Leo Niehorster]

Admirable representations. I just love those very early Stugs. And, in keeping with my interest in for service units, I must say that the tanks transporter is outstanding.

 

Keep up the amazing work.

Cheers

Leo

[Simon Tan]

They are so cute....I want to hug them.

[Fritz]

Thanks guys, yes, there's lots more coming of course, I just don't want to announce anything in advance, and yes, the visual style I'm after is that of small scale models / die cast toys

 

Leo, I also love all those vehicles, without which the tanks aren't going anywhere, so no worries, more are coming

[Sardaukar]

And here I am to check if this about "camel toe"..NSFW if googled....

[Fritz]

Need ToE help...

 

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn4461nov41.htm

 

is from late 1941

 

I need to know if it's any different than early 1941. One difference I know of is that the 250/6 replaces the 252 as ammo carrier in mid 1941.

From an Osprey book I know that in early 1941 they moved from 5 x 253 to one StuG + 4 motorcycles in the command plt, so that matches the late KStN.

I have a feeling that there isn't a huge difference between early and late 1941 KStNs.

 

EDIT: found more info here - http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=246149 but not quite enough yet.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Fritz

[Leo Niehorster]

I don't have the 01.02.1941 KStN, and they probably did not survive the end of the war, anyway. I do have some of the earlier ones.

As far as I can determine, the 01.02.1941 Sturmartillerie KStN were not too different from the provisional ones listed below. Note that a new (provisional) KStN 446 dated 18.04.1941 authorized a 7th Sturmgeschütz for the battery commander, and deleted the 4 armored command vehicles. Not all batteries were converted to this new KStN by 22.06.1941.

--------------------
A word about KStN.

Standard KStN were always dated on the 1st of the month. Provisional KStN were dated any other day of the month. These provisional KStN, (issued to test new organizations and changes to be promulgated), were then replaced by the official, standard KStN when ready. Sometimes, these provisional KStN remained in force and in effect became the standard KStN. In such cases, a ‘standard’ KStN (with an issue date on the 1st of the month), was not issued at all. Very often, there was no difference between the provisional to the standard KStN.

KStN were modified and changed by General Army Memorandums (AHM – Allgemeine Heeresmitteilungen), by orders issued by the various arms inspectorates or even by higher headquarters. These agencies continually changed and modified the KStN, adding a vehicle here, deleting a soldier or three there, or making other modifications.

--------------------
These are taken from a picture KStN, as opposed to a printed one, so personnel are not indicated, only vehicles and main weapons. Source: report by Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 185, dated 18.11.1940.

Battalion Headquarters (KStN 416, dated 04.07.40)
4× motorcycle
2× motorcycle with sidecar
2× medium field car (Kfz. 15)
2× medium car (civilian type)
1× heavy car (civilian type)
2× armored observation halftrack (Sd.Kdz. 253)

Headquarters Battery (KStN 444, dated 04.07.40)
• Headquarters Section
1× medium field car (Kfz. 15)
• Scout Section
1× light field car (Kfz. 1)
5× motorcycle
2× motorcycle with sidecar with 1× LMG each.
• Signal Section
1× signal car (Kfz. 15)
• Combat Train
1× motorcycle with sidecar
1× medium car (civilian type)
1× light antiaircraft car (Kfz. 4 with 2 LMG)
1× ambulance (Kfz. 31)
4× truck (3-ton)
1× armored ammo trailer (Sd.Ah. 29)
• Baggage Train
1× motorcycle
1× truck
• Battalion Maintenance Detachment
— Gun and Signal Maintenance Section
1× light car (civilian type)
2× truck (3-ton)
— Motor Vehicle Maintenance Section
1× motorcycle with sidecar
7× trucks (3-ton)
2× trailer (2-wheel) [possibly: 1×generator; 1×battery recharger]
— Recovery Section
1× motorcycle
3× halftrack,18-ton (Sd.Kfz. 9)
3× low bed trailer (Sd.Ah. 116)
• Battalion Ration Train
1× motorcycle
2× truck (3-ton)

1st – 3rd Assault Gun Batteries (KStN 446, dated 08.07.40), each with
• Headquarters Section
3× motorcycle
1× motorcycle with sidecar
1× halftrack (Sd.Kfz. 10)
3× medium field car (Kfz. 15)
• 1st – 3rd Platoons, each with
1× motorcycle
1× halftrack (Sd.Kfz. 11)
1× armored observation halftrack (Sd.Kfz. 253)
1× halftrack (Sd.Kfz. 10) + 1× armored ammo trailer (Sd.Ah. 29)
1× armored ammunition halftrack (Sd.Kfz. 252) + 1× armored ammo trailer (Sd.Ah. 29)
2× assault gun (Sd.Kfz. 142)
• Ammunition Detachment
1× motorcycle
1× motorcycle with sidecar
5× truck (3-ton)
• Combat Train
1× motorcycle
1× medium field car (Kfz. 15)
1× light antiaircraft car (Kfz. 4 with 2 LMG)
1× heavy car (civilian type)
3× truck (3-ton)
1× trailer
• Motor Vehicle Maintenance Section
2× motorcycle
1× light maintenance car (Kfz. 2/40)
5× Truck (3-ton)
• Baggage Train
1× motorcycle
1× truck (3-ton)

 

Any questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Cheers

Leo

[Fritz]

Thanks!

 

This is what the Osprey (Fighting Armor of WWII n.019) says, quote from an order to StuG-Batterie 900, 1 April 1941:

"In the place of five leichte gepanzerte Beobachtungskraftwagen (Sd.Kfz.253), one StuG and four heavy motorcycles with sidecars for dismounted platoon leaders; in the place of three Zugkraftwagen (3t) (Sd.Kfz.11), three medium trucks; and in place of one Zugkraftwagen (1t) (Sd.Kfz.10), one light truck."

 

So, it's sort of mid-way between your post and the late 1941 one, and this is where each zug sheds the 253 and the 11 (the single 10 is I assume from the HQ section). Also this was an independent battery (just a single StuG battery in some Lehr brigade), perhaps that's why it lists 5 instead of 4 253s...

 

It's fascinating how different the StuG organizations are compared to tank units - and how they progressively shed support vehicles (like the 253) and gain more StuGs to become more like them. It's like Artillery never talked to Armor and had to figure everything on its own.

 

...

 

Now, the problem here is that as an artist I want to make the coolest image, and a battery that includes a 253 looks cooler than one without it. Also, all these 253s didn't just magically disappear and saw action on the Eastern front, so I think I am going to include them. (not to mention I really like the all the 250 vehicles).

[Leo Niehorster]

Osprey's quote is slightly confusing:

— Why five Sd.Kfz. 253? (In fact, in one battery headquarters plus the three platoon leader vehicles = 4).

— Why four motorcycles with sidecars for the platoon leaders? (One each for the three platoon leader vehicles = 3).

 

Lehr-Batterie 900 had seven Sturmgeschütz according to both the strength report.and the organizational diagram

So, three platoons of two.

Why the extra vehicles?

 

Confused

Leo

[Max H]

It's like Artillery never talked to Armor and had to figure everything on its own.

 

 

That's pretty much what happened AFAIK.

[Marek Tucan]

Osprey's quote is slightly confusing:

— Why five Sd.Kfz. 253? (In fact, in one battery headquarters plus the three platoon leader vehicles = 4).

— Why four motorcycles with sidecars for the platoon leaders? (One each for the three platoon leader vehicles = 3).

 

Lehr-Batterie 900 had seven Sturmgeschütz according to both the strength report.and the organizational diagram

So, three platoons of two.

Why the extra vehicles?

 

Confused

Leo

2x253 for the Bty HQ, 1 each for platoons

1 StuG + 1 motorcycle for HQ, 1 for each platoon.

Makes sense?

[Fritz]

Possibly the independent battery had an extra 253?

[Marek Tucan]

yep, I think so. And extra MC.