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Posted

Well, apparently, Krab will be getting a K9 Thunder chassis, using the AS-90 derived turret mated to the Korean chassis. Makes one almost wonder if it would have just been easier in hindsight to have purchased the entire system.

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Posted

It would, however word of explanation.

 

The original concept of our MoD was to purchase turret system and put on our own chassis.

 

However due to actions of director board and workers union, everything went FUBAR. By 15 years these morons were demanding money, and were unable to properly design chassis, and MoD was very, very patient, just like turrets manufacturer and system integrator HSW.

 

The problem is that Bumar and design bureu OBRUM are state owned, and they act like saint cows, HSW is private owned company and they need to be accountable.

 

Here in Poland it is just a scandal, HSW pays money for penalty to MoD, and HSW and MoD are just furious about Bumar actions, and patients have it's limits.

 

Few years ago, HSW prepared plan B to save the program is Bumar would fuck up (which they did) and started negotiations with Turkey and later South Korea for their chassis used in K9... it seems it was a good decision.

 

K9 hulls will be manufactured in Poland on license, and will be not only used for Krab howitzers, but also for other applications as we purchase full license for hulls.

 

 

From my personall note... I am mad on Bumar and OBRUM as well, I actually sit inside Krab, and turret made by HSW is really modern, high quality product, but the chassis is, in the apperance it's not bad, but it's performance... god, they had fuck'in 15 years to finish that thing!

Bumar should be completely destroyed, and OBRUM should be transferred to HSW.

  • 4 months later...
Posted

PGZ, RHEINMETALL AND OBRUM WITH AGREEMENT ON DEVELOPMENT OF NEW ARMOURED CARRIER

 

22.05.2015

 

A cooperation agreement was signed in Radom in mid-May by and between the Polish Armaments Group (PGZ) and OBRUM sp. z o.o. as one party and the German company Rheinmetall Man Military Vehicles (RMMV) as the other party.

 

The parties to the agreement will together design and make prototypes of a new, amphibious, wheeled armoured carrier in 6x6 configuration, meeting the requirements of the modern battlefield.

 

This vehicle will be the first one in its class to take a full advantage of all experiences of the recent asymmetrical conflicts. The Polish economy will also win – the vehicle will be manufactured in Poland.

 

The signed agreement is in line with the plans of the Ministry of National Defence (MON) related to the procurement of a Light Armoured Reconnaissance Carrier (LOTR). Thanks to the agreement, it will be possible to replace the 4x4 BRDM-2 reconnaissance vehicles currently operated in Poland with state-of-the-art equipment.

 

The new design of the 6x6 carrier will make a full use of the great experience of OBRUM and RMMV in the field of wheeled armoured vehicles. This carrier will provide a high – for amphibious vehicles – degree of ballistic protection. With a payload of at least 3.5 t and combat weight below 20 t, it will be a very functional platform to be applied in reconnaissance and other missions.

 

PGZ and RMMV are also planning to offer a new vehicle and its derivatives together on foreign markets.

 

[...]

 

http://en.pgzsa.pl/a/91,pgz-rheinmetall-and-obrum-with-agreement-on-development-of-new-armoured-carrier

Posted

There is more going on, give me time, I might know much more after june 10th.

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

Ok so I was at the meeting with Polish Minister of Defence as well as people from Military responsible for modernization programs.

 

So let's start with armor stuff shall we?

 

1. Gepard Direct Fire Support Vehicle or Light Tank is... not necessary what it is called, and the PL-01 is not even close to what Military actually wants.

 

First things first, the weight of vehicle is not specified, what was said as 30-35 metric tons in initial requirements provided also for the media is only that, an entry point to the program, actually vehicle might be much, much heavier.

 

Unmanned turret, it's design is also not specified yet, especially placement of autoloader and ammunition magazine, some concepts have autoloader and ammo in the bustle, some other have them under the turret, so the case is open for discussion.

 

Also placement of engine is not specified yet, there are two camps that strugle with front or rear mounted powerpack concepts.

 

Also it seems that Russian T-14 had an impact on the whole conceptual phase of the program.

 

2. Leopard 2A4/A5 modernization to Leopard 2PL standard. KMW, Rhinemetall and also Aselsan are still in game. Actually it was said that Aselsans FCS is the most interesting, and also their deal proposal seems to have more advantages from technology transfer and cooperation point of view. However Army still have a requirement to move EMES-15 higher and put armor block in the old sight window to reduce a weak zone, so this means KWS-2 turret rebuild. Probably also they wish to have a driver hatch rebuild to the KWS-2 standard, it was discovered that the A4's driver hatches have problems with sealing properly.

 

In the end Leopard 2PL would look like vastly improved A5 (seems that L55 gun is not taken in to consideration at the moment).

 

Leopard 2A5's upgrade to Leopard 2PL is not scheduled yet, most likely would happen after all A4's would be upgraded.

 

3. IFV Borsuk, well it will be amphibious, it was a difficult decision as colonel I talked with told me, but necessary. The problem is still not enough money, so we can't modernize our water obstacles crossing equipment completely. Also they tested concept of deep water fording with IFV's and they found some problems that prohibited to use it. So decision was made to make base platform amphibious but with capability to install addon armor when necessary.

 

Of course things concerning armor are secret so I didn't even asked.

 

It also seems that our MoD and military seeks closer cooperation with Turkey and South Korea, in Turkey they got presentation of Altay among other stuff, they really liked it, also Leopard 2NG was presented, they especially liked their FCS. Of course there were also some talk with Turkish military, no details tho.

 

Also our delegation was in South Korea, they just fall in love with K2. ;) It seems that South Korean industry is also making attempts for closer cooperation and besides a deal for K9 chassis for Krab SPH, they are also offering components of K2, like suspension, and our guys really liked suspension of K2, so some components for Gepard perhaps?

 

They also seen K21, in general it made good impressions besides one thing, dismounts seats, these are considered as not very comfortable and not very safe (results of our experiences from Afghanistan it seems). Also it seems there were some talks with amphibious capabilities, probably concerning also intended amphibious capabilities of Borsuk.

 

Ok next things not connected to AFV's stuff.

 

Anti Air/Anti Ballistic Missiles Defence programs. The first one, program Wisła (Vistula) is won by Patriot system, however it won't be a PAC-3. Actually we are not directly talking with producer anymore, it's a deeper program, more a state cooperation program, so in the end we will got the same improved Patriot systems as US it seems. It will got true 360 degrees radar, some comms improvements and other stuff, details unknown.

 

Helicopters program, it seems that Caracal that won recently and is now tested, is not a replacement for any of our helicopters used at the moment. It seems to be supplementing them. Mi-8/17 will still serve till the end of their service life. There is also program Kruk (Raven) to aquire attack helicopters, dunno which one will be choosen tho still unofficially and in the media, it is said that most likely preffered choice is AH-64E.

 

There was of course also lot of talk about Navy, well actually Sweden might have an edge here with their A26, especially that our Navy wants cruise missiles, and Tomahawk is considered as preffered solution, and A26 can carry these, so we will see.

 

There was also some talk about surface vessels, but don't remember details, might ask later more collegues that were more interested in that subject.

 

Of course there is much more stuff going on, like new infantry small arms, the MSBS rifle and new military pistol PR-15 will participate in a state trails that should end with their induction in to service, however nobody knows when, as they are part of future soldier program Tytan (Titan) and there is still some work going on with it.

Posted
it was discovered that the A4's driver hatches have problems with sealing properly.

 

 

:lol: any leo tanker could have told them. It is quite a headache to properly align and adjust the old type driver's hatch with its lift up and swing sideways movement. And is relavely easy tp knock out of alignment. If properly done, the hatch is sealing, but that needs some skill and experience. I guess it was designed for swiss watchmakers to service. :glare: The newer sliding hatch is much easier to move as the crank can also be a bitch to use on the old type.


 

Germany is looking for a Patriot replacement/supplement, too and has just greenlighted further MEADS developement. One of the missiles to be used is PAC-3. Is the polish Patriot planned for 360° launch or only the radar?

 

 

 

I wonder why Poland does not simply buy the complete korean K-9 Thunder SPH?

Posted
I wonder why Poland does not simply buy the complete korean K-9 Thunder SPH?

 

Because we have already bought the full license for AS90 turret. And we even produced some.

Posted

 

Germany is looking for a Patriot replacement/supplement, too and has just greenlighted further MEADS developement. One of the missiles to be used is PAC-3. Is the polish Patriot planned for 360° launch or only the radar?

 

There was only talk about radar, but who knows what Americans will do with launchers.

Posted

Few years ago, HSW prepared plan B to save the program is Bumar would fuck up (which they did) and started negotiations with Turkey and later South Korea for their chassis used in K9... it seems it was a good decision.

 

K9 hulls will be manufactured in Poland on license, and will be not only used for Krab howitzers, but also for other applications as we purchase full license for hulls.

 

 

Any reason why they chose K9 instead of AS-90?

Posted

 

2. Leopard 2A4/A5 modernization to Leopard 2PL standard. KMW, Rhinemetall and also Aselsan are still in game. Actually it was said that Aselsans FCS is the most interesting, and also their deal proposal seems to have more advantages from technology transfer and cooperation point of view. However Army still have a requirement to move EMES-15 higher and put armor block in the old sight window to reduce a weak zone, so this means KWS-2 turret rebuild. Probably also they wish to have a driver hatch rebuild to the KWS-2 standard, it was discovered that the A4's driver hatches have problems with sealing properly.

 

Question: Leo 2 a5 feautures additional passive armor on turret. Will Polish 2A4 get it?

Posted

Any reason why they chose K9 instead of AS-90?

 

Newer, maybe cheaper, still in production, with full license to utilize the chassis in various applications, to export it etc.?

Posted

 

Any reason why they chose K9 instead of AS-90?

 

This is the result of many things.

 

First the AS90/52 turret was choosen because in 90's the whole idea was to purchase a turret module and put on domestic made chassis... of course thanks to workers unions in Bumar factory, the plan went FUBAR recently, so new chassis needed to be choosen, why exactly K9 chassis was choosen, no idea.

 

 

Question: Leo 2 a5 feautures additional passive armor on turret. Will Polish 2A4 get it?

 

After modernization there won't be any A4's left. ;)

 

In general Leopard 2PL might look like a mix of features from Strv122 and Leopard 2A7, at least this would be desired effect of modernization, later also our Leopard 2A5's would be upgraded to the same standard.

 

 

Posted

Hello Damian, is there any detail on the T-14 impact? Is this tank going to accelerate Poland's armour upgrade?

Posted

Sorry no details, it was just my impression, because it seems from the words of that colonel is that T-14 was not unnoticed.

 

But most of the stuff is classified, so I don't have acces to it, and even if I would, I would not tell. ;)

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

http://m.yna.co.kr/kr/contents/?cid=AKR20150626027600043&template=2087&mobile -> korean article

 

First K9 chassis for the AHS Krab has just been completed and rolled out.

So.. if I'm not mistaken.. 120 hull units for 310 million US dollars. 24 units to be supplied by South Korea and the remaining 96 to be produced in Poland by 2022.

 

So that sounds like a technology transfer if Poland is to produce the remaining 96. Although I'm not very confident that I understand correctly. But giving how Poland seems to really like the K9, then they would love to have a technology transfer of it.

Posted (edited)

That's correct. First batch of 24 chassis will be built in South Korea and supplied to Poland until 2017, and second batch of 96 chassis will be licence produced in Poland by HSW from 2018 to 2022. Of course this includes technology transfer from Samsung Techwin.

Edited by M48A5K
Posted

That's correct. First batch of 24 chassis will be built in South Korea and supplied to Poland until 2017, and second batch of 96 chassis will be licence produced in Poland by HSW from 2018 to 2022. Of course this includes technology transfer from Samsung Techwin.

Sweet :D

 

Some other parts I'm less sure of :lol:

Posted

Actually we purchased 100% license for K9, this means we receive complete technical documentation and rights to modify design as we see fit, and to reexport it.

Posted (edited)

Photographs of K9 chassis for Poland which was rolled out today.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by M48A5K
Posted

Actually we purchased 100% license for K9, this means we receive complete technical documentation and rights to modify design as we see fit, and to reexport it.

 

This means complete with the gun system?

Posted (edited)

Photographs of K9 chassis for Poland which was rolled out today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the photos! Can you translate what is written on vehicle?

 

 

 

This means complete with the gun system?

 

No, only chassis, we have a turret and gun system license from BAE for AS-90/52 turret and gun system which will be mated with K9 hull.

Edited by Damian
Posted

top line : 1st K9 chassis to be exported to Poland

bottom line, from left to right : DAPA(Defense Acquisition Program Administration), DTAQ(Defense Agency for Technology and Quality), Samsung Techwin co.

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