Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.

[Damian]

Great news, today another transport from US was unloaded in Poland, within it there was 38 M1A2SEPv3's and 14 M88A2's. So far we received 85 M1A2SEPv3's, and 26 M88A2's. In total we have 201 M1A1FEP's and M1A2SEPv3's. We can add to that 160 K2's, and as such, Poland so far received 361 new MBT's, with 128 Leopard 2A4/PL and 105 Leopard 2A5 this gives us a fleet of 594 modern MBT's. Polish Armor Force is growing in strenght.

@urbanoid@sunday@Stuart Galbraith@Markus Becker@alejandro_@old_goat@Old ROF@Mighty_Zuk@Laser Shark@Wouter2@txtree99@Sherman@QOHC32@Rick@bojan@Hal

Edited September 11 by Damian

[Damian]

Some nice photos of 1st Armored Brigade M1A1FEP's.

[Damian]

18th Mechanized Division, 19th Mechanized Brigade, 1st Tank Battalion, M1A1FEP's in action. This is part of excercises Iron Defender and Iron Gate.

Edited September 15 by Damian

[Markus Becker]

In related news: A Polish order for some type of anti tank missiles worth 660 million Euros was just approved by the USA. 

[bojan]

Javelins, 253 launchers and 2506 missiles.

https://www.dsca.mil/Press-Media/Major-Arms-Sales/Article-Display/Article/4307858/poland-javelin-missile-systems

[Markus Becker]

Thank you and go back to the party. You are too young to waste time on TN at this un...something our. 

[Przezdzieblo]

Video about the SPH Krab in Ukrainian service, with quite interesting observations from a commander with earlier experience on the PZH2000.

 

There is something for you, @Stuart Galbraith
https://youtu.be/alQsUeTnsNA?t=2353

 

[DB]

Slower to scoot, but might be more accurate seemed to be the conclusion.

Interesting point about variations in powder quality. Obvious superficially. I would expect NATO sourced powder to all be within tolerance of a defined specification, but obviously they're getting charges from everywhere that will sell them.

[Damian]

Polish Armed Forces, 1st Armored Brigade new promo graphic, showcasing Polish Land Forces capabilities that are now being build.

[Damian]

So 1st Armored Brigade, 18th Mechanized Division is going through Lampart-25 excercises. In this excercises, 1st Tank Battalion with M1A1FEP's is "fighting" against 2nd Tank Battalion with M1A2SEPv3's.

[Damian]

So Hyundai Rotem, Polska Grupa Zbrojeniowa and Zakłady Mechaniczne Bumar Łabędy, finally signed agreement for technology transfer, thanks to this agreement, Zakłady Mechaniczne Bumar Łabędy gains rights and capabilities to maintain K2GF, K2PL and specialized vehicles based on them, up to maintenance level 4, besides that ZMBŁ gains capabilities to modify and modernize vehicles in future, and of course to manufacture them.

Besides this, ARV, AVLB and AEV variants of K2PL are right now in development.

As per 2nd executive agreement, in years 2026-2027 116 K2GF will be delivered, in years 2028-2030 64 K2PL will be delivered and in years 2029-2031 81 ARV (31), AVLB (25) and AEV (25) will be delivered.

So far Polish Army ordered 360 K2GF and K2PL MBT's of which 160 K2GF had been delivered so far.

[Markus Becker]

So far Polish Army ordered 360 K2GF and K2PL MBT's of which 160 K2GF had been delivered so far.

 

Speedy delivery.  

[Damian]

Because there is new evidence that emerged, I need to stand corrected and admitt I was wrong. M1A2SEPv3's are not being build by using 100% raw materials, but they are being use through recycling of element of hull and turret structures from stored M1A1 hulls, just like M1A2SEPv3's for US Army, Australian Army, Romania and Bahrain. Here is a donor hull and turret structure.

I asked many times US Army and GDLS personell responsible for contract with Poland, and they always said vehicles are new, and this is where misunderstanding comes. In Polish, language is probably more precise, and new build means vehicle build from 100% raw materials. For US Army and GDLS all M1A2SEPv3's are technicaly new builds, even tough some parts of the structures are recycled.

Edited November 1 by Damian

[R011]

"New" in English normally means made from new materials.  An automobile made substantially from another automobile would be *restored" or "refurbished".

[Damian]

7 minutes ago, R011 said:

"New" in English normally means made from new materials.  An automobile made substantially from another automobile would be *restored" or "refurbished".

Yet, always answer was that they are new. This might be because these are not exactly refurbished, rather cut, some plates are replaced and then it's all welded again, so this can be considered as new.

[R011]

2 minutes ago, Damian said:

Yet, always answer was that they are new. This might be because these are not exactly refurbished, rather cut, some plates are replaced and then it's all welded again, so this can be considered as new.

If you need an old tank to make a "new" one, that remanufactured tank isn't new.  Like new, sure, but not the same as building new hulls and turrets out of local made parts 

[Markus Becker]

1 hour ago, R011 said:

If you need an old tank to make a "new" one, that remanufactured tank isn't new.  Like new, sure, but not the same as building new hulls and turrets out of local made parts 

Well, if the used parts are the same quality as new production, particularly tank armor that doesn't wear out by age....??

The difference might just be in the terminology and in any case Poland wanted swift delivery.

 

 

[Damian]

1 hour ago, Markus Becker said:

Well, if the used parts are the same quality as new production, particularly tank armor that doesn't wear out by age....??

The difference might just be in the terminology and in any case Poland wanted swift delivery.

 

 

Special armor modules are replaced anyway. 

[Markus Becker]

On 11/1/2025 at 9:38 PM, Damian said:

Special armor modules are replaced anyway. 

Meaning? No more up to date/worn or DU that isn't ok-ed for export? 

[Damian]

3 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

Meaning? No more up to date/worn or DU that isn't ok-ed for export? 

M1A2SEPv3 have new type of armor called NEA (New Evolution Armor) or NGAP (Next Generation Armor Package) installed in turret and hull, also some M1A1SA's and M1A2SEPv2's received some kind of 1st generation of this armor, while M1A2SEPv3's have more refined 2nd generation of this new armor.

This is armor is designated with suffix M next to the turret serial code.

M1A1SA:

M1A2SEPv2:

M1A2SEPv3:

Polish Army M1A2SEPv3's have suffix MP next t turret serial code, which means they have a variant of the armor used in US Army tanks:

My hypothesis is that this new armor type, do not use DU, and it's replaced with something else. This is further coroborated by US Army National Armor and Cavalry Museum.

This is old M1A1HA moved to the museum, because it had DU in it's turret armor, before it could be moved to the museum, DU armor must had been removed from turret armor arrays due to environmental safety, this is why turret had outer steel layers cut off and then welded again:

While M1A2SEPv4 prototype, which have the same armor as M1A2SEPv3, was moved to the museum, without any necessity to remove any armor:

So based on this evidence, my hypothesis is that NEA/NGAP armor, do not contain DU, but it's a new type of composite armor, it's 1st generation was introduced around 2010/2011 installed in some newer M1A1SA's and M1A2SEPv2's, and it's more refined and stronger 2nd generation was developed for M1A2SEPv3 and M1A2SEPv4.

[DB]

I imagine that the people you spoke with were instructed to call the tanks new to avoid giving the impression to "the media" that these were second-hand tanks, as opposed to the truth.

People who might seek to create rage-bait or propaganda headlines would seize on any hint that these tanks were not new as meaning they were second rate.

[Markus Becker]

Well, refurbished is a bit of an understatement for what they did with the M1s. That's a very comprehensive re-building with new and better armor added. 

 

[Damian]

5 hours ago, DB said:

I imagine that the people you spoke with were instructed to call the tanks new to avoid giving the impression to "the media" that these were second-hand tanks, as opposed to the truth.

People who might seek to create rage-bait or propaganda headlines would seize on any hint that these tanks were not new as meaning they were second rate.

In my opinion, these vehicles are still new, as @Markus Becker pointed out, these are not just refurbished, but hulls and turrets are cut and welded again, with new armor, and all internal components are replaced. For me this is a new vehicle, just build with using some plates from old hull and turret.

[seahawk]

They are completely redone and back to zero hours on the clock. Yes hull and turret structure is taken from existing stock. (As I pointed out before, as the production line for new turrets and hulls just came online very recently) 

So they are new by all important metrics, they are just not new in the sense that the production line could make additional tanks. 

[Damian]

1st Armored Brigade, 2nd Tank Battalion.