Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.

[Damian]

5 hours ago, Sherman said:

Hopefully, with the new European Defence Fund Poland will be able to more fully capitalize military production capacity and provide for a more realistic procurement horizon for IFVs and other tracked/wheeled vehicles.

I doubt that anything will be provided for our industry. EDF is designed to profit others.

[Sherman]

1 hour ago, Damian said:

I doubt that anything will be provided for our industry. EDF is designed to profit others.

It all depends if Europe is serious about assuming responsibility for their defence, they may still have their heads in the sand. 

They would be making a mistake ignoring the potential of Poland, but they would be fostering a potential competitor down the road. But first, Europe needs to insure their is still a road to go down.  It will be interesting to see whether greed or fear wins out.

[urbanoid]

5 minutes ago, Sherman said:

It all depends if Europe is serious about assuming responsibility for their defence, they may still have their heads in the sand. 

They would be making a mistake ignoring the potential of Poland, but they would be fostering a potential competitor down the road. But first, Europe needs to insure their is still a road to go down.  It will be interesting to see whether greed or fear wins out.

I guess that Orka program can be financed from these loans, as buying something European is most likely. 

As for financing major purchases of our own stuff, produced by our defense industry, I'm not holding my breath, I'll believe it when I see it.

[Damian]

11 minutes ago, Sherman said:

It all depends if Europe is serious about assuming responsibility for their defence, they may still have their heads in the sand. 

They would be making a mistake ignoring the potential of Poland, but they would be fostering a potential competitor down the road. But first, Europe needs to insure their is still a road to go down.  It will be interesting to see whether greed or fear wins out.

I highly doubt that France, Germany or Italy will procure our weapon systems like Borsuk, Piorun etc. But hey in general I have very negative view on the entire EU.

[Sherman]

2 minutes ago, Damian said:

I highly doubt that France, Germany or Italy will procure our weapon systems like Borsuk, Piorun etc. But hey in general I have very negative view on the entire EU.

Agreed.

Borsuk will not be exported and Poland cannot afford to export it at this time regardless. Poles have some decent products but there is not current production capacity to cover even domestic requirements in most areas.

The best potential for Poland is to work their way into the supply chain in a more meaningful way and start procuring more European produced systems that they have investment in, be it production of sub components, engineering or even shares in the business entities themselves.

But that is a rational way to look at things, and so...

[old_goat]

BTW, were there any serious comparison tests between Borsuk and other modern western IFVs, like Puma, Lynx, CV90, AS21 Redback, etc?

[urbanoid]

No and there's no need to make any, unless some potential foreign customer wishes to do so as part of the procurement process.

[old_goat]

20 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

No and there's no need to make any, unless some potential foreign customer wishes to do so as part of the procurement process.

Ukraine?

[urbanoid]

8 minutes ago, old_goat said:

Ukraine?

No idea, I simply meant any potential future customer. 

We have no motivation to compare, because:
1. Borsuk is ours, was deemed to be good enough and that's it.
2. It's amphibious, it was what MoD really, really insisted on, so there's not much to compare in the first place. 

And no, I don't expect future customers any time soon. We have a gorillion of BMPs to replace not for yesterday, but for 20 years ago, as far as I'm concerned that should be a priority over any potential customers. 

Edited March 23 by urbanoid

[Damian]

Ok, this is very important news. It seems that tommorow, MoD will sign first executive agreement for first series batch of Borsuk (Badger) IFV's, altough I am still awaiting official confirmation from MoD. We expect that this first batch will consist of 116 vehicles, so two battalions, 58 vehicles each.

I was also invited by manufacturer, Huta Stalowa Wola to visit their facilities, see their vehicles, among them Borsuk, Krab, Heron, Waran and many other specialized variants.

@urbanoid@sunday@Mighty_Zuk@Sherman@Markus Becker@Stuart Galbraith@old_goat@Wouter2@Rick@alejandro_@bojan@Hal

[Sherman]

Excellent news!! Thanks for sharing it. 

I would be curious if you get any insights about their production capacity and the time frame for the production of this first lot, while understanding this type of information may be considered sensitive at this point.

The quicker the Soviet junk is purged the better.

[Damian]

5 minutes ago, Sherman said:

Excellent news!! Thanks for sharing it. 

I would be curious if you get any insights about their production capacity and the time frame for the production of this first lot, while understanding this type of information may be considered sensitive at this point.

The quicker the Soviet junk is purged the better.

We will see, definately I will not share some things, but I will share what is deemed open to the public information.

[sunday]

2 hours ago, Damian said:

I was also invited by manufacturer, Huta Stalowa Wola to visit their facilities, see their vehicles, among them Borsuk, Krab, Heron, Waran and many other specialized variants.

Cool!

[Damian]

So we have it, first executive agreement for 111 new Borsuk IFV's and modification to series configuration of 1 prototype and 4 pre series vehicles so 116 in total. First batch of Borsuk IFV's will be delivered in 2025. General production and deliveries schedule for Borsuk IFV's is 2025-2029.

[Sherman]

Thanks for the update! 

The production schedule is significantly slower than I had expected, and may not bode well for a Polish solution to a heavy IFV.  With a requirement for 2100 units between the two vehicle series, the math is fairly clear.

Of course, I am not privy to the reasoning behind this and will continue to follow developments.

Edited March 29 by Sherman

[Damian]

2 hours ago, Sherman said:

Thanks for the update! 

The production schedule is significantly slower than I had expected, and may not bode well for a Polish solution to a heavy IFV.  With a requirement for 2100 units between the two vehicle series, the math is fairly clear.

Of course, I am not privy to the reasoning behind this and will continue to follow developments.

No, not at all. Production is rather fast. Remember, this is only first batch, and only 111 (116) were ordered, because of that, and that during production, additional changes and improvements will be implemented, so there is no huge sense to order a huge batch at the very start of production.

Also during production of the first batch, there will be some smaller, additional improvements added, so this is why production schedule is 2025-2029.

[Sherman]

40 minutes ago, Damian said:

No, not at all. Production is rather fast. Remember, this is only first batch, and only 111 (116) were ordered, because of that, and that during production, additional changes and improvements will be implemented, so there is no huge sense to order a huge batch at the very start of production.

Also during production of the first batch, there will be some smaller, additional improvements added, so this is why production schedule is 2025-2029.

Thank you.

[Sherman]

On 3/29/2025 at 7:56 AM, Damian said:

No, not at all. Production is rather fast. Remember, this is only first batch, and only 111 (116) were ordered, because of that, and that during production, additional changes and improvements will be implemented, so there is no huge sense to order a huge batch at the very start of production.

Also during production of the first batch, there will be some smaller, additional improvements added, so this is why production schedule is 2025-2029.

I read your very informative article on Defence 24. Well done, I appreciated the detailed analysis of the developments at HSW.   I agree with many of the points you made, hopefully, there will be time to more extensively re-equip and provide stores of munitions for the armed forces of Poland.  I fear the hour is getting late.

[Damian]

1 hour ago, Sherman said:

I read your very informative article on Defence 24. Well done, I appreciated the detailed analysis of the developments at HSW.   I agree with many of the points you made, hopefully, there will be time to more extensively re-equip and provide stores of munitions for the armed forces of Poland.  I fear the hour is getting late.

Polish Army for several years now, was procuring munitions of various callibers, so military ammo depots are being filled with ammunition. Other subject is estabilishing larger production capabilities of Polish Arms Industry when it comes to ammunition.

[Damian]

When we await new deliveries of vehicles. Here are some older videos showing assembly and transport of PT-91M2A1 and PT-91M2A2.

 

[alejandro_]

11 hours ago, Damian said:

When we await new deliveries of vehicles. Here are some older videos showing assembly and transport of PT-91M2A1 and PT-91M2A2.

Damian, are you aware if Polish government made any upgrades to road/rail infraestructure following the acquisition of Leopard 2/Abrams and K2? These models are noticably heavier than T-72 and PT-91 operated before. Romania is finding this problem when selecting a new tank. One of the solutions could be to include investment in infrastructure as part of the deal.

https://www.defenseromania.ro/achizitia-de-tancuri-k2-ar-putea-deschide-usa-romaniei-catre-investitii-majore-in-infrastructura-portul-constanta-ar-putea-beneficia-si-el-de-cooperarea-cu-coreea-de-sud_633023.html

Edited April 6 by alejandro_

[QOHC32]

#Damian, the barrel of the 12.7 looks like an M2, am i wrong?

[Damian]

23 hours ago, alejandro_ said:

Damian, are you aware if Polish government made any upgrades to road/rail infraestructure following the acquisition of Leopard 2/Abrams and K2? These models are noticably heavier than T-72 and PT-91 operated before. Romania is finding this problem when selecting a new tank. One of the solutions could be to include investment in infrastructure as part of the deal.

https://www.defenseromania.ro/achizitia-de-tancuri-k2-ar-putea-deschide-usa-romaniei-catre-investitii-majore-in-infrastructura-portul-constanta-ar-putea-beneficia-si-el-de-cooperarea-cu-coreea-de-sud_633023.html

Poland was investing in to infrastructure for a very long time. We have no problems moving around our new tanks. Why people in the west are thinking we are poor or something?

Seriously, You should visit Poland this year, for example 15th August for Polish Armed Forces Day.

2 hours ago, QOHC32 said:

#Damian, the barrel of the 12.7 looks like an M2, am i wrong?

Perhaps yes, but IMHO it was a mockup.

[alejandro_]

17 hours ago, Damian said:

Poland was investing in to infrastructure for a very long time. We have no problems moving around our new tanks. Why people in the west are thinking we are poor or something?

 

 

It is not about being poor, but more like updating infrastructure. It happens everywhere when new equipment is acquired. 

[Sherman]

18 hours ago, Damian said:

Poland was investing in to infrastructure for a very long time. We have no problems moving around our new tanks. Why people in the west are thinking we are poor or something?

Seriously, You should visit Poland this year, for example 15th August for Polish Armed Forces Day.

Perhaps yes, but IMHO it was a mockup.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Poland#/media/File:HighwaysMapPoland.svg

This is a a graphic illustration of the progression of the Polish national highways.