Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.

[Damian]

2 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

@Damian @UR77Meteorit

 

 

Poland's .... Warhammer!? It all makes sense now. 💡 That big and not sloped frontal plate is there to display the crest of the Empire of Man!

 

 

Make Poland von der Ostsee bis zum Schwarzen Meer! 

Borsuk front armor have interesting design, the geometry is to make it better at amphibious operations, but, there is large cavity in front between external plate and engine compartment. Inside this cavity most likely there is buoyancy element right now. But in theory this cavity is large enough, that, again at least in theory, you could install there a composite armor.

[bojan]

If you do so  it would probably considerably change balance of the hull.

[Mighty_Zuk]

18 hours ago, Damian said:

Correct. Concept of 155mm SPH like Ceasar is seen by Polish Artillery Corps as not fit for current and future large scale battlefield with peer adversary. So focus is placed on tracked systems, while wheeled 155mm SPH requirements must be redefined, and they will return to it after 2035.

Any concrete reason why? This is the first time I'm hearing of a decision to divest from wheeled platforms for howitzers in preparation for a fight.

[Damian]

5 hours ago, bojan said:

If you do so  it would probably considerably change balance of the hull.

Yes, but hydropneumatic suspension makes this easier (not easy, just easier). Of course vehicle would not be amphibious anymore.

Quote

Any concrete reason why? This is the first time I'm hearing of a decision to divest from wheeled platforms for howitzers in preparation for a fight.

No, no, no. We are not divesting all wheeled platforms. Army simply decided that tracked SPH is better than wheeled SPH due to survivability, being better platform for a gun, better mobility in difficult terrain, more ammunition inside etc.

Edited January 18, 2025 by Damian

[alejandro_]

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Any concrete reason why? This is the first time I'm hearing of a decision to divest from wheeled platforms for howitzers in preparation for a fight.

In Ukraine tracked models have shown their advantage, comment by Frederik Coghe, Lieutenant-Colonel IMM Ir at Belgian Defence:

Although the Caesar is a good platform, numbers don't tell the whole story. One of the reasons why few Caesar systems have been lost is due to the fact that the UKR keeps them far from the front line due to their limited survivability against enemy counter-artillery strikes. The Caesar also lacks off-road mobility due to its wheeled configuration. For this reason, UKR can only use them on a very limited scale in the spring and fall. The Krab system has none of these limitations and is therefore used in the front line with a correspondingly higher attrition. The Krab has no more problems dodging enemy counter-attacks than the Caesar, and is even better due to its high tactical mobility, but is not used in the same role as the Caesar. Incidentally, the Caesar's battery entry and exit currently takes longer than the enemy kill chain for counter-battery fire. However, since the Caesar is used as reserve artillery support due to its high operational mobility, and has a greater range than most enemy systems, it has suffered limited losses. In my opinion, the award for best arty system actually goes to a system used in the same role as the Krab, but with only one system lost to date: Panzerhaubitze 2000...
 

[Damian]

Advantage of PzH2000 is heavier armor and isolated propelant charges storage. AFAIK Polish Army want to solve survivability problems of Krab, within Krab 2 with autoloader which also means, that perhaps at least propelant charges will be isolated.

But Krab modernization means most likely development of completely new turret system.

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, alejandro_ said:

In Ukraine tracked models have shown their advantage, comment by Frederik Coghe, Lieutenant-Colonel IMM Ir at Belgian Defence:

Although the Caesar is a good platform, numbers don't tell the whole story. One of the reasons why few Caesar systems have been lost is due to the fact that the UKR keeps them far from the front line due to their limited survivability against enemy counter-artillery strikes. The Caesar also lacks off-road mobility due to its wheeled configuration. For this reason, UKR can only use them on a very limited scale in the spring and fall. The Krab system has none of these limitations and is therefore used in the front line with a correspondingly higher attrition. The Krab has no more problems dodging enemy counter-attacks than the Caesar, and is even better due to its high tactical mobility, but is not used in the same role as the Caesar. Incidentally, the Caesar's battery entry and exit currently takes longer than the enemy kill chain for counter-battery fire. However, since the Caesar is used as reserve artillery support due to its high operational mobility, and has a greater range than most enemy systems, it has suffered limited losses. In my opinion, the award for best arty system actually goes to a system used in the same role as the Krab, but with only one system lost to date: Panzerhaubitze 2000...
 

I'd be wary about over-learning from Ukraine. But it makes sense, seeing that terrain is not quite favorable to wheels. 

Still, howitzers aren't the only thing there. The soldiers also need supplies, rotations, and general movement needs. Are these all done on tracked platforms as well?

[Damian]

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

I'd be wary about over-learning from Ukraine. But it makes sense, seeing that terrain is not quite favorable to wheels. 

Still, howitzers aren't the only thing there. The soldiers also need supplies, rotations, and general movement needs. Are these all done on tracked platforms as well?

No, of course not. Poland produce it's own trucks from Jelcz company. We also procure other wheeled platforms.

[Damian]

Well, Polish MoD can surprise. They just informed that 28 brand new M1A2SEPv3's for Poland, was unloaded in port of Gdynia. These are first two companies from total of 250 ordered.

@urbanoid@Markus Becker@sunday@alejandro_@Mighty_Zuk@Sherman@Rick@Stuart Galbraith

Edited January 18, 2025 by Damian

[bojan]

2 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

... But it makes sense, seeing that terrain is not quite favorable to wheels. ...

It is +/- same or even worse terrain anywhere where Poland might fight.

[Damian]

We can now confirm, that turret serial numbers, ends with letter MP. This means that M1A2SEPv3's for Polish Army, have a variant of the same armor, as M1A2SEPv3's for US Army, where their serial number, ends with letter M.

[Damian]

M1A2SEPv3's for Polish Army at Joint Systems Manufacturing Center Lima, Ohio. I received this photo among others, thanks to courtesy of General Dynamics Land Systems and US Army.

I have some additional news. It was confirmed recently by Polish Ministry of Industry, that there are talks between Poland and USA about procurement and coproduction of additional M1A2SEPv3's for Poland. Coproduction program means, that these vehicles, would be produced in Poland at WZM (Wojskowe Zakłady Motoryzacyjne) facility in Poznań. What this means for K2PL program is uncertain right now.

@urbanoid@sunday@Markus Becker@Stuart Galbraith@Sherman@alejandro_@Harkonnen@old_goat@Mighty_Zuk@bojan@Rick@txtree99@R011@DB

[sunday]

Interesting, thanks.

[alejandro_]

Thank you Damian, this must be the most informative thread on Polish armoured vehicles in the internet.

Article on BTR-70 upgrade carried out in Poland and delivered to Ukraine. The company involved in Mista, which also produces the Dozor-B Ukrainian vehicle under license (called Oncilla). If you check their website they don't offer any BTR upgrades. This one has been referred as BTR-70DI, which is the designation on an Ukrainian one. Maybe is a case of this company doing the upgrade under license.

Upgrade replaces 2 engine with a more modern one, transmission, and thermal sights, so most of BTR-70s original shortcomings are fixed. 

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4892295.html

Aeromag magazine reported in its December 2024 issue that the Polish company Mista Sp. z oo from Stalva Wola has repaired and modernized more than 150 BTR-70 armored personnel carriers for an unnamed customer - which, as you can easily guess, is Ukraine. The modernization of the armored personnel carriers includes the installation of a Western diesel engine and transmission, the redesign of the side hatches based on the BTR-80 model, the installation of new surveillance devices, a satellite navigation system, as well as a PP-61 gunner's thermal imaging sight and a SPO MBT driver-mechanic thermal imaging device manufactured by the Ukrainian company Trimen. It is stated that the vehicles are also equipped for the installation of electronic warfare systems and protective nets and screens. The BTR-70 armored personnel carrier modernized by the Polish company Mista Sp. z oo (c) Rafał Bienkowski

These modernized BTR-70s have already been spotted in service with the 151st Separate Mechanized Brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the fall of 2024 (video below). It is unclear whether the BTR-70s were received from the Ukrainian Armed Forces for modernization by Mista or were purchased from third countries (where they could have been licensed Romanian-made BTR-70s from the former GDR army).

Mista was previously known as a manufacturer of the Oncilla 4x4 light armored vehicle for Ukraine - a modified version of the TKBM Dozor-B vehicle developed by the A.A. Morozov Kharkiv Design Bureau for Mechanical Engineering (KMDB). Mista, founded in 1993 and initially specializing in the production of motor graders and excavator repairs, acquired license documentation for the Dozor-B back in 2011. Following the failure to establish production of the Dozor-B vehicles in Ukraine, the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense awarded Mista a contract in 2019 for 24 Oncilla 4x4 L2014-UD vehicles, which were delivered to the Ukrainian Armed Forces in 2020-2021. Following the outbreak of hostilities in Ukraine in 2022, further orders for the production of Oncilla armored vehicles for the Ukrainian Armed Forces and other Ukrainian security forces followed, with 100 vehicles reported to have been delivered to them by that time in March 2024, and now, according to Aeromag, Mista claims to have delivered over 200 Oncillas, "proven in real combat situations." Several Oncilla vehicles are also known to have been delivered to Senegal.

In its plans for 2025, Mista announces the start of production of special versions of vehicles based on the Oncilla (command and staff, medical and electronic warfare), equipping the Oncilla with remotely controlled combat modules, as well as the production of a new amphibious armored vehicle Oncilla 2 4x4. The company also intends to develop and produce UAVs and unmanned ground platforms, as well as remotely controlled combat modules. The BTR-70 armored personnel carrier modernized by the Polish company Mista Sp. z oo (c) Rafał Bienkowski Work on serial modernization of the BTR-70 armored personnel carriers by the Polish company Mista Sp. z oo (c) Aeromag

BTR-70DI: https://www.generalequipment.info/BTR-70DI.pdf

 

[Damian]

Ok some clarification. So indeed it seems that Ministry of Industry, is talking with GDLS about coproduction of M1A2SEPv3's in Poland, however I am still in the process to gain more information.

Also K2PL program is continued. Just recently there were audits in Polish industry facilities that are meant to be involved in production. Both Polish and Korean government and industry sides confirmed that negotiations are ongoing and both sides want sign agreement.

@urbanoid@sunday@Markus Becker@Stuart Galbraith@Sherman@alejandro_@Harkonnen@old_goat@Mighty_Zuk@bojan@Rick@txtree99@R011

[Hal]

It seems the next Abrams development (the M1E3) now has priority so transitioning M1A2SEPv3 production to Poland makes sense. Probably the biggest near future customer, a backup plan if the M1E3 is delayed, and also getting ready to co-produce the M1E3 when/if that ever happens. Winning all around.

[Damian]

On 2/1/2025 at 7:19 PM, Hal said:

It seems the next Abrams development (the M1E3) now has priority so transitioning M1A2SEPv3 production to Poland makes sense. Probably the biggest near future customer, a backup plan if the M1E3 is delayed, and also getting ready to co-produce the M1E3 when/if that ever happens. Winning all around.

Right now M1E3/M1A3 is highly classified.

Anyway, here is updated list of what we got so far and what we plan. Surprisingly english Wikipedia have the best and most up to date list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Polish_Land_Forces

[Damian]

Quick update. As for this day, Polish Ground Forces have such new MBT's: 

1. K2 Black Panther - 98/180, 

2. M1A1FEP - 116/116, 

3. M1A2SEPv3 - 28/250. 

So in total 242 delivered out of 546 new MBT's that were ordered.

When it comes to older but still modern MBT's, Polish Ground Forces currently have: 

1. Leopard 2A4 - 52, 

2. Leopard 2PL - 76, 

3. Leopard 2A5 - 105.

In total 233 modern MBT's, that will still serve untill a suitable replacement for them will be procured.

Obsolete MBT's that are right now decomissioned and withdrawn from service and reserves are T-72 and PT-91 MBT's:

1. T-72 - ~100, 

2. PT-91 - ~172-202. 

Some may be kept for longer time as vehicles used by our OPFOR.

[Markus Becker]

How do the numbers of active and reserve tanks now compare to the ones from before the war?

[Damian]

1 hour ago, Markus Becker said:

How do the numbers of active and reserve tanks now compare to the ones from before the war?

Pretty much no reserves right now, all T-72's were given to Ukraine. Our reserves must be rebuilt.

[Markus Becker]

The reserve could get interesting if the remaining T-72/PT-91 aren't even considered fit for that or rather more urgently needed elsewhere. 

As a reserve tank the PT looks ok but it probably runs into the "out with Com Bock equipment" decision, doesn't it? 

[Damian]

1 hour ago, Markus Becker said:

The reserve could get interesting if the remaining T-72/PT-91 aren't even considered fit for that or rather more urgently needed elsewhere. 

As a reserve tank the PT looks ok but it probably runs into the "out with Com Bock equipment" decision, doesn't it? 

Polish Army made decision to completely decomission all equipment and weapon systems that are not NATO standard.

[urbanoid]

On 2/24/2025 at 7:10 PM, Markus Becker said:

The reserve could get interesting if the remaining T-72/PT-91 aren't even considered fit for that or rather more urgently needed elsewhere. 

As a reserve tank the PT looks ok but it probably runs into the "out with Com Bock equipment" decision, doesn't it? 

Apparently Poland has just transferred another 'large batch' of T-72s to Ukraine, according to the RUMINT I've heard there are only around 200 vehicles of the T-72 family left in Poland, majority of them PT-91s.

[old_goat]

2 hours ago, urbanoid said:

only around 200 vehicles of the T-72 family left in Poland, majority of them PT-91s.

I hope they will retain at least some of them for museums, preferably in full working condition.

[urbanoid]

3 minutes ago, old_goat said:

I hope they will retain at least some of them for museums, preferably in full working condition.

There are quite a few 72s in museums already, nobody's touching those. In Poznań there's a T-72M2D, which is basically an early prototype of PT-91. I'm not sure whether we have a 'proper' PT-91 anywhere in a museum.