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Posted

Thanks @Damian, very interesting as usual. As crews more experience it will be interesting to compare performance during cold winters or in bad terrain.

When comparing an Abrams and K2 unit OOB, does the first have a higher number of supply vehicles to take into account higher fuel consumption? In the Gulf War M1 Abrams fuel consumption was 280% higher than M60. It was also one of the reasons Indian Army went for T-90S instead of T-80U.

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Posted
1 hour ago, alejandro_ said:

Thanks @Damian, very interesting as usual. As crews more experience it will be interesting to compare performance during cold winters or in bad terrain.

When comparing an Abrams and K2 unit OOB, does the first have a higher number of supply vehicles to take into account higher fuel consumption? In the Gulf War M1 Abrams fuel consumption was 280% higher than M60. It was also one of the reasons Indian Army went for T-90S instead of T-80U.

I have no knowledge about changes in number of fuel trucks. However recently, MoD signed a contract to procure 215 (+105 in option) CD-10s fuel trucks. But these fuel trucks will be for entire Armed Forces, and not only for 18th Mechanized Division.

Posted

And what about ammunition? I know americans supplied M829 series APFSDS for M1s, but are they used exclusively for them, or are they shared wiht K2s? And what ammo came with the K2?

Posted
5 hours ago, old_goat said:

And what about ammunition? I know americans supplied M829 series APFSDS for M1s, but are they used exclusively for them, or are they shared wiht K2s? And what ammo came with the K2?

Intent is to use all types of ammunition interchangably between tanks. It is already possible, however Army want to make certification.

So far it seems that primary APFSDS round will be KET from Northrop Grumman, this is equivalent to M829A3/A4, just with tungsten rod instead of DU rod. Poland received license for KET and M1147 AMP, within offset from the 2nd phase of Wisła program.

However procurement of other types of ammunition is being done when and where it is deemed necessary.

Posted (edited)

Just a side note. Poland is building it's ISTAR capabilities. So far Poland procured and some systems are already delivered.

Gladius recon and attack system, it's already in service.

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MQ-9B SkyGuardian system, procured recently. These drones will be used primary for recon and long range/long time duration observation. Attack gapabilities are considered as secondary.

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Bayraktar TB2, already in service, used like MQ-9B but at a lower level.

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Saab 340 AEW&C Erieye, already in service, this is first AEW (AWACS) type platform in Polish Air Forces. It's a stop gap solution before more advanced system will be procured.

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Satelites, there are two types of satelites procured. Larger ones from Airbus, these are probably Pleiades Neo type of satelites. Second one are smaller microsatelites based on HyperSat platform, developed by Polish company Creotech Instruments SA.

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Observation Aerostats codenamed "Barbara", are also ordered.

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There are of course other procurements in this regard, like small observation drones FlyEye wby WB Group, these will be probably most numerous small recon drones in Polish Army.

@sunday@Markus Becker@urbanoid@old_goat@alejandro_

Edited by Damian
Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, sunday said:

Very interesting. Poland is getting AEW earlier than Spain, for our shame...

Why do you expect that we will ever get airborne AEW? If we haven't procured it in the past*, it's nearly impossible that we will buy it in the future, unless Airbus makes a version.

* for the Air Farce, the Navy had the SH-3

 

Edited by RETAC21
Posted (edited)

So we have some new contracts. Huta Stalowa Wola, which is main producer of artillery systems, received recently two new contracts.

First contract is for 96 AHS Krab howitzers. Interesting thing is that 48 of these will be in standard configuration, and 48 more will be upgraded with things like autoloader, RWS with 12,7mm machine gun, and some other improvements. With 96 AHS Krab howitzers, there are also ordered various support vehicles. In total 4 artillery batalions were ordered for 9 bln PLN. So far HSW secured several contracts to produce around 240 AHS Krab for Polish Armed Forces + finalized contract to produce 54 AHS Krab for Ukrainian Armed Forces.

Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym

Second major contract is for over 250 support vehicles for 9 K9A1 artillery batalions. This contract is worth 8 bln PLN. Within this contract, HSW also will develop new medium weight ARV based on Krab/K9 chassis, to support artillery units.

Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym

Also, MoD photos from HSW, shows production of Borsuk IFV hulls. These Borsuk IFV's are being manufactured by HSW on their own funds and risk, before first executive agreement is signed with MoD. So far MoD says that first executive contract for first batch of Borsuk IFV's might be signed next month.

Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym

And some additional photos MoD released from HSW. These photos present next batch of Rosomak IFV's with ZSSW-30 turret, and it seems more vehicles awaiting integration, and some other systems, like Waran 4x4 in mobile launcher variant for BSP-U Gladius UAV system, Homar-K launcher, and more Krab's being produced.

Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym

@sunday@alejandro_@old_goat@Markus Becker@urbanoid@Rick@Sherman@Mighty_Zuk@txtree99@Stuart Galbraith

Edited by Damian
Posted
11 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

Hm, more Krabs despite the K9s? 

The Golden Rule of Mobilisation, I presume: mass produce what's in production.  

K9's were needed to quickly replace 2S1's that were given to Ukraine. And altough K9 and Krab are extremely similar, they have some differences and both are better in different areas.

It is not directly said, but we can assume that K9 is treated as a cheaper, somewhat less advanced, and Krab as more expensive but also more advanced in some domains.

Posted
14 hours ago, Damian said:

So we have some new contracts. Huta Stalowa Wola, which is main producer of artillery systems, received recently two new contracts.

First contract is for 96 AHS Krab howitzers. Interesting thing is that 48 of these will be in standard configuration, and 48 more will be upgraded with things like autoloader, RWS with 12,7mm machine gun, and some other improvements. With 96 AHS Krab howitzers, there are also ordered various support vehicles. In total 4 artillery batalions were ordered for 9 bln PLN. So far HSW secured several contracts to produce around 240 AHS Krab for Polish Armed Forces + finalized contract to produce 54 AHS Krab for Ukrainian Armed Forces.

Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym

Second major contract is for over 250 support vehicles for 9 K9A1 artillery batalions. This contract is worth 8 bln PLN. Within this contract, HSW also will develop new medium weight ARV based on Krab/K9 chassis, to support artillery units.

Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym

Also, MoD photos from HSW, shows production of Borsuk IFV hulls. These Borsuk IFV's are being manufactured by HSW on their own funds and risk, before first executive agreement is signed with MoD. So far MoD says that first executive contract for first batch of Borsuk IFV's might be signed next month.

Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym

And some additional photos MoD released from HSW. These photos present next batch of Rosomak IFV's with ZSSW-30 turret, and it seems more vehicles awaiting integration, and some other systems, like Waran 4x4 in mobile launcher variant for BSP-U Gladius UAV system, Homar-K launcher, and more Krab's being produced.

Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym Podpisanie umów z polskim przemysłem zbrojeniowym

@sunday@alejandro_@old_goat@Markus Becker@urbanoid@Rick@Sherman@Mighty_Zuk@txtree99@Stuart Galbraith

Thank you for the update and photos. It seems the elves have been hard at work making "toys".

Interesting the old "Soviet" road wheels on the support vehicle.

Posted
3 hours ago, Damian said:

 

It is not directly said, but we can assume that K9 is treated as a cheaper, somewhat less advanced, and Krab as more expensive but also more advanced in some domains.

Thats interesting. I thought it is the opposite. Or you are talking about the upgraded Krab? I remember ukrainians had a very bad opinion about the original vehicle. 

Posted
1 hour ago, old_goat said:

Thats interesting. I thought it is the opposite. Or you are talking about the upgraded Krab? I remember ukrainians had a very bad opinion about the original vehicle. 

Ukrainians have often strange opinions about everything, probably depending on the mood. Not to mention they often turned off fire extuinguishing system, to smoke cigarettes inside... this caused additional problems.

Krab in general is considered as a bit more advanced than K9A1, due to better fire extuinguishing system, better FCS altough Topaz is retrofitted to our K9A1's as well. Krab also have Obra self defence system etc. On the other hand, K9A1 is definately more affordable, and it's 1 metric ton lighter, and thus slightly more mobile.

It is also considered that K9A1 turret geometry is a bit better, because turret is less cramped.

Overall both vehicles are comparable, both having pros and cons.

Posted
2 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Yeah I was about to inquire on that.

Damian, what's with the wheels?

As urbanoid said, inherited from 2S1 and MT-LB, and also improved compared to originals. It is definately cheaper to use these, already avaiable road wheels, suitable for lighter, narrow tracks, for LPG platform. Altough LPG is constantly being unified with Borsuk, so who knows, maybe at some point LPG will be retrofitted with Borsuk running gear.

Posted
On 12/27/2024 at 11:57 AM, Damian said:

K9's were needed to quickly replace 2S1's that were given to Ukraine. 

That quit the improvement even if the 2S1s had been recently modernized. 

What was their status before the war? I presume reserve like T-72? 

Posted
29 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

That quit the improvement even if the 2S1s had been recently modernized. 

What was their status before the war? I presume reserve like T-72? 

Both T-72's and 2S1's were in active service. So right now T-72's will be mostly replaced by 116 M1A1FEP's and 250 M1A2SEPv3's + 180 K2's, this also means replacement for PT-91's. 2S1's are mostly replaced by K9A1's, altough of course there are also Krab's that are being procured.

Posted
14 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

And here I was thinking the active tank force was Leo 2 and PT-91. 

WRT 2S1, I realized Poland never had the 2S3, so yes, active. 

Right now it seems that there is perhaps a desire to keep some T-72's and PT-91's to act as OPFOR during excercises.

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

@Damian
 

Apparently Poland will focus only on tracked self propelled guns until 2035, following analysis of war in Ukraine.

https://zbiam.pl/armatohaubica-kryl-dopiero-po-roku-2035/

On January 8, the website of the Chancellery of the Sejm published the response of the Ministry of National Defence to a parliamentary interpellation concerning the acquisition of the Kryl wheeled howitzer.

The author of the above document, which was submitted to the Ministry of Defence in mid-November, is MP Dominik Jaśkowiec (Civic Coalition Parliamentary Club). The response, in accordance with the procedure, was provided by the Secretary of State in the Ministry of National Defence Paweł Bejda, who is responsible for the implementation of the technical modernisation programme of the Polish Army. In the document sent to the Sejm, we read that, taking into account the experience from the war in Ukraine, the Ministry of National Defence decided first to build the striking capacity based on 155 mm self-propelled howitzers KRAB and 155 mm self-propelled howitzers K9/GAP FILLERA/A1/PL. The current Technical Modernisation Plan of the Armed Forces for the years 2021-2035 does not include the acquisition of 155 mm self-propelled howitzers on the wheeled chassis "KRYL" in the said period, however, the issue of acquiring the aforementioned equipment after 2035 is being considered.

The “Divisional Fire Module for 155mm Self-Propelled Gun Howitzers” program, which resulted in the Kryl, was completed by the end of 2022. According to the concept, wheeled artillery systems were to constitute the second pillar of the Polish Army artillery units equipped with 155mm gun howitzers. Ultimately, as a result of the outbreak of the Ukrainian-Russian war, the Ministry of National Defense has now focused on tracked artillery systems.

Posted
5 hours ago, alejandro_ said:

@Damian
 

Apparently Poland will focus only on tracked self propelled guns until 2035, following analysis of war in Ukraine.

https://zbiam.pl/armatohaubica-kryl-dopiero-po-roku-2035/

On January 8, the website of the Chancellery of the Sejm published the response of the Ministry of National Defence to a parliamentary interpellation concerning the acquisition of the Kryl wheeled howitzer.

The author of the above document, which was submitted to the Ministry of Defence in mid-November, is MP Dominik Jaśkowiec (Civic Coalition Parliamentary Club). The response, in accordance with the procedure, was provided by the Secretary of State in the Ministry of National Defence Paweł Bejda, who is responsible for the implementation of the technical modernisation programme of the Polish Army. In the document sent to the Sejm, we read that, taking into account the experience from the war in Ukraine, the Ministry of National Defence decided first to build the striking capacity based on 155 mm self-propelled howitzers KRAB and 155 mm self-propelled howitzers K9/GAP FILLERA/A1/PL. The current Technical Modernisation Plan of the Armed Forces for the years 2021-2035 does not include the acquisition of 155 mm self-propelled howitzers on the wheeled chassis "KRYL" in the said period, however, the issue of acquiring the aforementioned equipment after 2035 is being considered.

The “Divisional Fire Module for 155mm Self-Propelled Gun Howitzers” program, which resulted in the Kryl, was completed by the end of 2022. According to the concept, wheeled artillery systems were to constitute the second pillar of the Polish Army artillery units equipped with 155mm gun howitzers. Ultimately, as a result of the outbreak of the Ukrainian-Russian war, the Ministry of National Defense has now focused on tracked artillery systems.

Correct. Concept of 155mm SPH like Ceasar is seen by Polish Artillery Corps as not fit for current and future large scale battlefield with peer adversary. So focus is placed on tracked systems, while wheeled 155mm SPH requirements must be redefined, and they will return to it after 2035.

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