Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.

[Perun]

19 hours ago, Perun said:

Saab Signs $1.2-Billion Carl Gustaf Order With Poland

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/03/06/saab-carl-gustaf-poland/?expand_article=1

What is wrong with polish RPG-7

[Stuart Galbraith]

10 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Precisely. If anyone ever doubts or questions defense investment as an idea, just ask them if they got car insurance.

Pretty much what my late Father always said. He said investment in defence in the insurance policy you never want to pay out.

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, Perun said:

What is wrong with polish RPG-7

Have a look at the variety of different rounds available for the Charlie G. Its the swiss army knife of squad antitank weapons.

[Perun]

10 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Have a look at the variety of different rounds available for the Charlie G. Its the swiss army knife of squad antitank weapons.

I know that but RPG-7 to has many diferent grenades, Poland has it in inventory and already can produce it

[Mighty_Zuk]

11 minutes ago, Perun said:

I know that but RPG-7 to has many diferent grenades, Poland has it in inventory and already can produce it

Existing stocks are naturally bound to expire. 

Newly produced are going to be technically inferior to the AT4. So the best option is to withdraw gradually by replacing with AT4.

[urbanoid]

13 minutes ago, Perun said:

I know that but RPG-7 to has many diferent grenades, Poland has it in inventory and already can produce it

We have never produced RPG-7, only ammunition. There are maybe 2-3k RPGs in our inventory, I think all of them acquired during times of Warsaw Pact, so 35+ years ago. Hard to say how many of those were donated to Ukraine.

Why CG? Apart from it's superiority over RPG-7 it's because we haven't done shit in 20 years, despite all the talk about needing to replace RPG-7s, now there's no time and we need it 'for yesterday'. Deliveries of 6000 launchers and 'hundreds of thousands' of ammo are to be completed by 2027.

[seahawk]

Was there not a contract for M72 signed in 2022? So those are more the RPG replacements.

[urbanoid]

M72 is single-use, like RPG-76 Komar that was retired, 10k+ were ordered.

[urbanoid]

According to MoD's secretary of state we plan to sign around 150 contracts this year, this includes:
- AH-64
- more radar aerostates (TARS)
- more K2s
- HIMARS + Chunmoo
- F-16 upgrade (probably to F-16V standard)
- more ammunition for aircraft
- tank ammo
- recon/strike UAVs
- multirole and support helicopters

He said that the program for the development of the armed forces is underfinanced by around 500 billion PLN (USD 120+ billion), I don't know the timeframe for that (2025-2039?).

[bojan]

3 hours ago, urbanoid said:

- AH-64...

Why?

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, bojan said:

Why?

Because the US has cleared the sale but there's still no contract.

[bojan]

Question is why does Poland need heavy attack helicopter?

[Damian]

9 hours ago, Perun said:

What is wrong with polish RPG-7

Nothing wrong per se. However we do not have a lot of RPG-7's. We do not have modern ammunition for them. And there is also a strategic decision made within MoD and Polish Armed Forces, to step by step completely withdraw all weapon systems that have origins in Soviet Union, and either procure NATO standard weapon systems from our allies or develop our own equivalents if possible.

 

28 minutes ago, bojan said:

Question is why does Poland need heavy attack helicopter?

Because:

1. Land Forces need a replacement for Mi-24D and Mi-24V.
2. Land Forces see a heavy attack helicopter as a fast multirole and anti tank platform that with proper long range guided munitions have capability to support Land Forces from behind friendly lines.

3. Because we want them and we can afford them.

[Perun]

3 hours ago, Damian said:

Nothing wrong per se. However we do not have a lot of RPG-7's. We do not have modern ammunition for them. And there is also a strategic decision made within MoD and Polish Armed Forces, to step by step completely withdraw all weapon systems that have origins in Soviet Union, and either procure NATO standard weapon systems from our allies or develop our own equivalents if possible.

That is real reason. Thanks mate

[Damian]

3 hours ago, Perun said:

That is real reason. Thanks mate

No problem.

So for now we have a duo of M72 EC Mk1 and M4 CG. Besides that also Javelin and Spike ATGM's.

For tank destroyers and helicopters we will have Brimstone, Hellfire and JAGM/JAGM-MR ATGM's.

In tests there is also Pirat ATGM (something inbetween RPG's and Javelin/Spike), and in development (TRL6 last time I talked about it with official from WITU) is Moskit ATGM which is equivalent of Spike LR/LR2.

[bojan]

IIRC in Warsaw Pact only Soviets, Bulgarians and Romanians produced RPG-7, despite it being used by every single member.

[Pavel Novak]

7 hours ago, Damian said:

No problem.

So for now we have a duo of M72 EC Mk1 and M4 CG. Besides that also Javelin and Spike ATGM's.

For tank destroyers and helicopters we will have Brimstone, Hellfire and JAGM/JAGM-MR ATGM's.

In tests there is also Pirat ATGM (something inbetween RPG's and Javelin/Spike), and in development (TRL6 last time I talked about it with official from WITU) is Moskit ATGM which is equivalent of Spike LR/LR2.

Were there any comparisions done between M72 and RPG-75?

[Olof Larsson]

On 3/7/2024 at 8:43 AM, Perun said:

What is wrong with polish RPG-7

1 - The poles don't have enough of them, so going all in for RPG-7 in stead of CG means producing thousands of them any way.

2 - CG is far more accurate.

3 - The CG is a more compact weapon (especially loaded) and so is the munition.

4 - CG comes with a larger array of more modern munition, including progammable HE, smoke, illuminating round, HEDP, anti structure and a laser guided MP-round, with a 2500m range, i.e. 10-20 times the effective range of the RPG-7 vs. a point target.

5 - New made CG munition can be imported from NATO partners, if domestic production is insufficient or has been destroyed of disrupted.

 

[Perun]

8 minutes ago, Olof Larsson said:

1 - The poles don't have enough of them, so going all in for RPG-7 in stead of CG means producing thousands of them any way.

2 - CG is far more accurate.

3 - The CG is a more compact weapon (especially loaded) and so is the munition.

4 - CG comes with a larger array of more modern munition, including progammable HE, smoke, illuminating round, HEDP, anti structure and a laser guided MP-round, with a 2500m range, i.e. 10-20 times the effective range of the RPG-7 vs. a point target.

5 - New made CG munition can be imported from NATO partners, if domestic production is insufficient or has been destroyed of disrupted.

 

Thanks 😉

[Damian]

1 hour ago, Pavel Novak said:

Were there any comparisions done between M72 and RPG-75?

Good question. Probably yes, because RPG-75 is used by our Special Forces, but regular Land Forces and Territorial Defense Forces use M72. Why so? No idea.

 

15 minutes ago, Olof Larsson said:

1 - The poles don't have enough of them, so going all in for RPG-7 in stead of CG means producing thousands of them any way.

2 - CG is far more accurate.

3 - The CG is a more compact weapon (especially loaded) and so is the munition.

4 - CG comes with a larger array of more modern munition, including progammable HE, smoke, illuminating round, HEDP, anti structure and a laser guided MP-round, with a 2500m range, i.e. 10-20 times the effective range of the RPG-7 vs. a point target.

5 - New made CG munition can be imported from NATO partners, if domestic production is insufficient or has been destroyed of disrupted.

Correct, especially that we procured with CG M4, also new sights, the FCD558.

 

[bd1]

On 3/7/2024 at 6:36 PM, bojan said:

Question is why does Poland need heavy attack helicopter?

for the case russia looses war in ukraine , of course!

[On the way]

On 3/6/2024 at 4:40 AM, Perun said:

Saab Signs $1.2-Billion Carl Gustaf Order With Poland

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/03/06/saab-carl-gustaf-poland/?expand_article=1

and this:

Poland to Launch First Military Satellites in 2025

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/03/05/poland-launch-military-satellites/

 

 

Poland really invests in their Armed forces

The CG order is a good piece of business for Poland. I was at the Saab Pavilion in the Singapore Air Show 2 weeks ago and at a long discussion with the product specialist for the CG. The variety of ammo and range of ammo for the new Mk4 is pretty incredible. Being an old Mk2 user myself, I had expected the CG be to be obsolete long time ago. But they reinvented themselves by making the launcher half the weigh it was when I was using it. And the ammo is many times more effective. We are talking 500mm armour penetration for their anti tank round. 

[Damian]

Some REFORGER vibes here in Poland.

Edited March 9, 2024 by Damian

[Markus Becker]

On 3/8/2024 at 9:42 PM, On the way said:

The CG order is a good piece of business for Poland. I was at the Saab Pavilion in the Singapore Air Show 2 weeks ago and at a long discussion with the product specialist for the CG. The variety of ammo and range of ammo for the new Mk4 is pretty incredible. Being an old Mk2 user myself, I had expected the CG be to be obsolete long time ago. But they reinvented themselves by making the launcher half the weigh it was when I was using it. And the ammo is many times more effective. We are talking 500mm armour penetration for their anti tank round. 

 

And in top of that the CG pre-dates the RPG-2. Is there any other launcher from the same period still in use? Other than by small and underfunded forces? 

[bojan]

2 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

And in top of that the CG pre-dates the RPG-2. Is there any other launcher from the same period still in use? Other than by small and underfunded forces? 

1948 CG is not really compatible with later ones. It is more less RPG-2/RPG-7 relation, newer models are evolution of basic design, but are not same thing.