Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.

[shep854]

Taking the Ukrainian drone war to heart.  What sort of counter-drone options are they looking at?

[Damian]

15 minutes ago, shep854 said:

Taking the Ukrainian drone war to heart.  What sort of counter-drone options are they looking at?

We have artillery-missile system PSR-A Pilica and Pilica+ which uses upgraded ZU-23-2 autocannons, these are designated ZUR-23-2SP Jodek and have modern fire control system, electrooptics, rotation and elevation drives, and can be both towed or self propelled on truck.

ZUR-23-2SP Jodek guns are also equipped with Grom or Piorun MANPADS.

So PSR-A Pilica can be used both as VSHORAD and also have some C-UAS capabilities. These capabilities will increase when new ammunition with proximity fuzes will be developed for ZUR-23-2SP guns.

PSR-A Pilica+ system is upgraded with 2x iLaunchers with CAMM missiles in each batter.

There is of course more, because in Poland, air and missile defence will be integrated via IBCS C2 system, all these smaller systems are just part of a single large system.

So for example, this is another anti drone system based on Polish WLKM 12,7mm rotary machine gun.

There are of course other systems that are already fielded or are in development phase.
 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Damian

[Damian]

Tank crews from 1st Armored Brigade, 18th Mechanized Division, went through their first training course using AGTS simulators at Nowa Dęba Training Grounds. This is interim solution under supervision of US Army personel, AGTS simulators were bought by the Polish MoD and will be installed in Wesoła where 1st Armored Brigade have it's permament base.

[Strannik]

Apparently the financing part of the SK tank contract was "misunderstood" says Tusk, - "the issue emerged".

The issue - no loan from SK.

https://www.reuters.com/world/south-korean-loan-poland-arms-deal-does-not-exist-says-pm-2023-12-27/

[Damian]

We will see. There might be a competition between USA and RoK, because it seems that right now, US Government and GDLS also offers license production of M1A2SEPv3 in Poland. Or at least so are rumors that GDLS offer is also very good and competetive.

However make no mistake, what was bought and is now delivered won't be cancelled, what is under discussion are framework agreements, not executive agreements.

[Strannik]

Yep, all these good things. And 500  (or was it 1000?) Himars.

Not sure who is going to handle all these systems - seems issues with expanding the ranks:

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Strannik

[Damian]

Today 18th Mechanized Division informed, that they received 14 Homar-K MLRS launchers. This is significant step forward for Polish Land Forces long range, rocket artillery. However this unit should have 18 launchers so where are 4 remaining? 1 is not build yet, 2 are in HSW and are being integrated also with 122mm rockets, and 1 is in RoK where it is integrated and tested with bigger missiles.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Damian

[Damian]

First company of 14 M1A1FEP's with their crews from 1st Armored Brigade, 18th Mechanized Division, are now going to Nowa Dęba Training Area, where crews will go through live fire certification under supervision of tank crews from US Army.

Additional 26 tanks are now going through deprocessing after sea transport at WZM S.A. facility, and will joint first company later this year. Additional 76 M1A1FEP's should arrive to Poland this year. Also there is a chance that first of 250 M1A2SEPv3's will arrive to Poland this year as well.

[Mighty_Zuk]

@DamianDo you know whether any of the M1A2SEPv3 for Poland are new-build?

Also, do you have any data on new-built and modified tank production in the US? I'm having a debate with someone on whether it's worth building new Merkavas every year vs modifying old ones.

[Damian]

7 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

@DamianDo you know whether any of the M1A2SEPv3 for Poland are new-build?

Also, do you have any data on new-built and modified tank production in the US? I'm having a debate with someone on whether it's worth building new Merkavas every year vs modifying old ones.

I asked that question several times to GDLS, US Army NET Team, and Polish MoD/Army authorities, and answer was like that. 250 M1A2SEPv3's will be all 100% new built tanks, this is also why we need to wait for them a little bit longer. 116 M1A1FEP's are ex USMC vehicles that were refurbished and modified. M88A2's, M1110 and M1150 vehicles will be all based on existing hulls in US Army strategic reserve AFAIK.

As for building new hulls by GDLS, it seems there is a proof that this is indeed happening, there is GDLS video that shows a glimpse of an M1 hull that seems to be new build one.
 

This seems to be a new build hull, because it does not have internal 25mm plates that creates cavities for front fuel tanks on both sides of driver station, welded in yet.

Also some additional information. US Government and GDLS offers to build a production facility for new M1 tanks in Poland of Poland will order additional 300-500 tanks. This is considered as serious offer, and it seems that WZM S.A. plant CEO is considered it as a serious alternative for K2PL.

Especially that from recent information we have, WZM S.A. plant is extremely pleased from cooperation with GDLS so far.

Keep in mind, this is not a signed contract, this is just an option, possibility that might be considered.

Last year I talked with GDLS Employee here in Poland, and he confirmed that such offer is on the table, and that it might open a door for Polish specific variant, with for example diesel engine instead of gas turbine if such would be a requirement.

We will see what will happen in future.

[Perun]

Do you know which engine would be used

[Damian]

7 minutes ago, Perun said:

Do you know which engine would be used

No, this was just idea, that perhaps such variant with diesel engine could be developed, but if I would bet at anything, most likely MTU MT883 as it was already integrated and tested.

However right now, AGT1500 gas turbine is considered as ok solution. Its not perfect, but it is reliable, servicable engine, the only real downside is that it consumes more fuel than diesel.

I guess that perhaps at some point I could tell more about what is going on with Polish Armed Forces Technical Modernization program, because there is going on a lot.

Edited January 3, 2024 by Damian

[Perun]

Thanks mate

[Damian]

3 minutes ago, Perun said:

Thanks mate

If you have any specific questions in the subject of the Polish Armed Forces, feel free to ask, I will try to answer as best as it is possible.

[Mighty_Zuk]

@DamianThanks for the answer!

[Damian]

So, unexpectedly today another ship from USA, moored in port of Świnoujście, this time transporting 29 M1A1FEP Abrams Main Battle Tanks and 79 M1240A1 M-ATV vehicles.

This means that today, Polish Armed Forces have 69 M1A1FEP's and 124 M1240A1 M-ATV's.

[Damian]

M1A1FEP's at Nowa Dęba Training Area, tank crews are going through weapon systems certification right now.

And something that might be interesting for @sunday@Stuart Galbraith@Markus Becker@Manic Moran and others.

In Poland, two private museums have ongoing restoration projects for two Tiger tanks.

This is a screenshot from my friends YouTube channel where he talks about it, altough it's only in Polish https://www.youtube.com/@projektkampania3632. So there are two projects, first is done in Muzeum Pancerne w Kłaninie (Armor Muzeum in Kłanino) from where this photo is and where also Panther Ausf. A restoration project is ongoing. And second Tiger is restored at Panzer Farm Museum from what we know.

Oh and I would completely forgot. Muzeum Broni Pancernej w Poznaniu (Armor Museum in Poznań), is now restoring a Centurion.

Also, Muzeum Polskiej Techniki Wojskowej (Polish Military Technology Muzeum) in Warsaw, is renovating their ISU-122, which is quiet a rare vehicle even in Poland.

Edited January 13, 2024 by Damian

[sunday]

Wow, looks like a Polish I&I could be very interesting. Food is very good, also.

[Damian]

1 hour ago, sunday said:

Wow, looks like a Polish I&I could be very interesting. Food is very good, also.

Recently I go in to contact with guys from MPTW Muzeum in Warsaw, I am supporting them here in social media, and perhap gonna visit them soon.

Meanwhile a PT-91 in Ukraine.

This is a lter series PT-91, either PT-91MA or PT-91MA1 which means it is rebuild and modernized T-72M or T-72M1, however it is uncertain if modernized T-72M received T-72M1 turret during that upgrade. To be frank, incremental upgrades to PT-91's are not very well known also in Poland in case of publicly avaiable knowledge.

[old_goat]

6 hours ago, Damian said:

And second Tiger is restored at Panzer Farm Museum from what we know.

Isnt it the joint project with Saumur? The guys at Panzer Farm told in a recent video that they received lots of parts from france, so they first study them, then begin some limited production of spares, and later also complete transmissions. Quite amazing. 20 years ago it was completely impossible, now with modern technology, it became reality... Great news for everybody who likes tanks, and at the same time, horrible news for Bovington

 

[sunday]

18 minutes ago, old_goat said:

Isnt it the joint project with Saumur? The guys at Panzer Farm told in a recent video that they received lots of parts from france, so they first study them, then begin some limited production of spares, and later also complete transmissions. Quite amazing. 20 years ago it was completely impossible, now with modern technology, it became reality... Great news for everybody who likes tanks, and at the same time, horrible news for Bovington

 

Well, Saumur has a runner Königstiger already...

[Damian]

27 minutes ago, old_goat said:

Isnt it the joint project with Saumur? The guys at Panzer Farm told in a recent video that they received lots of parts from france, so they first study them, then begin some limited production of spares, and later also complete transmissions. Quite amazing. 20 years ago it was completely impossible, now with modern technology, it became reality... Great news for everybody who likes tanks, and at the same time, horrible news for Bovington

 

It is possible that this might ba a joint project.

[Dark_Falcon]

1 hour ago, old_goat said:

Isnt it the joint project with Saumur? The guys at Panzer Farm told in a recent video that they received lots of parts from france, so they first study them, then begin some limited production of spares, and later also complete transmissions. Quite amazing. 20 years ago it was completely impossible, now with modern technology, it became reality... Great news for everybody who likes tanks, and at the same time, horrible news for Bovington

 

Not so bad for Bovington since more running tanks inspires more interest in the Tank Museum, which still has the biggest collection.

[Damian]

45 minutes ago, Dark_Falcon said:

Not so bad for Bovington since more running tanks inspires more interest in the Tank Museum, which still has the biggest collection.

IMHO cooperation between various museums is benefitial for all of them. Especially when it comes to exchange of experience, knowledge, data, maybe even spare parts etc.

We have plenty of rare vehicles, biggest problem is money to restore them.

[old_goat]

1 hour ago, Dark_Falcon said:

Not so bad for Bovington since more running tanks inspires more interest in the Tank Museum, which still has the biggest collection.

There was a discussion about this a while ago. Bovington's policy is to keep the "originality" of the vehicles. For them, installing a 2024 built, but otherwise totally identical transmission into the Tiger is an abhorrent idea. They already planning to retire the Panzer IIIL, because lots of parts starting to wear out, and they will not replace them, because it ruins the "originality" of the tank. There was also a quite depressing speech of the curator(?) about how long they can keep the Tiger running... 

Also, one of Bovington's main attraction was Tiger 131, the only running Tiger in the world... Well, that will change in the following years. First the Saumur Tiger, and later one, or maybe two(!) from the Wheatcroft collection, and finally, there are already plans to make the AAAM Tiger running, again in cooperation with Panzer Farm, with brand new transmission and engine. Thats bad news for Bovington, not only because the advertising about the "only running Tiger" will not stand anymore, but also because there will be no replacement for worn out parts (unless they change their policy).