Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.

[Damian]

Currently we have 900 tanks in inventory, majority of them are T-72M1's.

 

What we will have:

 

247 Leopard 2 tanks, all A4 variants (142) will be upgraded up to 2020 to Leopard 2PL variant, later 105 A5's also will be upgraded to Leopard 2PL variant.

 

232 PT-91's.

 

And there should be approx 500 T-72M1's left for some brigades and in storage.

 

After 2020 T-72M1's slowly will be phased out from service and storage, most likely offered for export or scrapped, later PT-91's will follow, and both models will be replaced by new tank based on new modular tracked platform.

 

Of course the partial problem is that we have 3 battalions equipped with PT-91's and there are 4 battalions equipped with T-72M1Z which is partially upgraded to PT-91 standard, both tanks might not be easy to recognize.

 

Edited November 22, 2013 by Damian

[Damian]

Meanwhile it seems that our armor-mechanized units will get a really strong boost.

MoD decided that Leopard 2PL modernization will be more advanced than initially believed.

Standard Leopard 2PL should be better than Leopard 2A5.

1. Modernization will include rebuild of turrets in to KWS-2 standard (so like Leopard 2A5 and newer variants) so it means that EMES-15 primary sight will be raised and it's old window covered with armor, eliminating old weak zone, hull will also be most likely rebuilded.
2. Old special armor will be replaced with new one.
3. There will be spall liners inside as well.
4. Commander PERI-R17 will be replaced with new PERI-R17A3 with "Attica" thermal sight.
5. Driver will receive new vision blocks as well as rear view camera.
6. Turret and hull will receive attachement points for addon armor.
7. FCS will be improved with ability to use designed in Poland programmable multipurpose HE ammunition.
8. Turret traverse and main armament elevation servo's will be replaced from electro-hydraulic to fully electric system.
9. Some other improvements.

This is for basic level of improvements. There are four additional improvement levels.

level A:
External aditional modular armour on turret front and hull front. APU, STOPFire sytsem, new drivers anti-blast seats.

level B:
Additional soft kill APS Obra-3 SSP-1 and aditional 16 81mm smoke granades, new inertial navigation system "Tain 30000".

level C:
EMES-15 improvement by replacing old thermal camera with next generation "Attica" thermal camera. Cooling system for crew and electronics block.

level D:
Additional RCWS designed in Poland (more info's here: Zdalnie sterowane moduły uzbrojenia OBR SM Tarnów)


Cost of basic level of modernization of a single Leopard 2A4 to Leopard 2PL will be around 2-2,5 mln EUR, which is around 8mln PLN.

We will have then 142 Leopard 2PL and 105 Leopard 2A5 which will be modernized in future most likely, after Leopard 2A4's will be modernized.

Leopard 2PL with all improvements will be more or less equivalent for Leopard 2A7.

So now we only need new IFV, which is designed as a part of UMPG modular platform.

[ramontxo]

So current developments in Crimea may be pushing up defence expenditure?

[Damian]

Yup, our politicians were very concerned about current events, so many programs might see pace increase in R&D phase.

 

Paradoxally Putin might actually strenghten NATO by his actions. A day ago or so, Lithuania minister of defence talked with our minister of defence about purchasing by Lithuania, polish designed "Grom" MANPADS. So cooperation starts to tighten.

[Ben Dejo]

Damian, on 22 Nov 2013 - 3:33 PM, said: Of course the partial problem is that we have 3 battalions equipped with PT-91's and there are 4 battalions equipped with T-72M1Z which is partially upgraded to PT-91 standard, both tanks might not be easy to recognize.

Have you considered Aluminum Siding©, installed and appropriately painted Aluminum siding is fire-proof, termite-proof and fade resistant. Because it resists corrosion and moisture it won't red-rust, rot, split, warp or crack. It also stands off the massive heat sink that is the main armor protection and serves not only to visually modify but provide some resistance to thermal detection by more rapidly normalizing its' heat level to the background. Done creatively, hell, they might think it's an Abrams

 

 

[Damian]

Hmmm, interesting.

 

Oh one more thing.

 

It appears that I was a bit mistaken about T-72M1Z.

 

There are such tanks but probably mixed in battalions with PT-91's.

 

And we have 4 such battalions. Rest use simple T-72M1's.

[urbanoid]

Wasn't in that out of 233 PT-91s built there were 98 new vehicles and 135 upgraded T-72s (a. k. a. T-72M1Z)?

[Damian]

Good point but hard to say for certain really. The problem is that nowhere there is avaiable good and detailed literature about this subject. And probably nobody really cares about this... pity.

[Olof Larsson]

So current developments in Crimea may be pushing up defence expenditure?

 

We actually see a similar trend in Sweden,

with all parties in parlament, except for the Greens,

aggreing that we need to increase the military expenditure significantly.

 

Even the defence hostile formaly conservative party,

seems to believe that we need to increase the military expenditure.

 

Well not the conservative minister of defence

or the conservative chairman of the defence committee,

but they have been steamroled by the conservative PM* and the conservative minister of finance*.

 

Speaking of steamrolling, the swedish Defence Material Administration

are currently steamrolling HDW

(the owner of the submarine manufacturers ThyssenKrupp and Kockums),

as HDW has long delayed, letting Kockums start producing the Swedish A26-submarines for the Swedish navy,

and has prevented Kockums from exporting the A26.

 

But as the swedish Defence Material Administration owns the A26 design and the patents,

all that HDW has is employees and a shipyard, that they don't want to use.

 

So as we speak, SAAB (under contract from the swedish Defence Material Administration)

is rapidly employing a considerable part of Kockums workforce,

while the swedish Defence Material Administration is trying to secure production

in either Australia and/or Poland and/or in the navys yards

(and presumably also by taking control over the HDW-Kockum yard, through eminent domain).

 

 

(*) They are the primary culprits (together with the previous socialist PM)

of the current situation in the armed forces, and the minister of finance

annonced new reductions on the military expenditure only a few days before the Chrimean crisis.

[Damian]

May 16 Poland received first 11 Leopard 2A5 tanks. Some news and photos.

 

http://www.altair.com.pl/news/view?news_id=13457
http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/aktualnosci/news,1,7074,aktualnosci-z-polski,pierwsze-leopardy-dzis-w-zaganiu
http://www.defence24.pl/news_leopardy-2a5-juz-w-zaganiu
http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/home/articleshow/12622?t=Leopardy-2A5-sa-juz-w-Zaganiu

[Damian]

PT-91 tanks from 34th Armored Cavalry Brigade are transfered to 9th Armored Cavalry Brigade that is currently equipped with T-72M1 tanks.

 

http://www.34bkpanc.wp.mil.pl/pl/11_188.html
http://www.34bkpanc.wp.mil.pl/pl/18_104.html

And new Leopard 2A5 tanks that are now serving in 34th Armored Cavalry Brigade.

 

http://www.34bkpanc.wp.mil.pl/pl/11_181.html

Edited July 7, 2014 by Damian

[Simon Tan]

T-72 M1...slap on some ERA and off to the Caliphate front.

[methos]

Why didn't they just give the Leopard 2A5s to the 9th Armored Cavalry Brigade? Then they wouldn't need to retrain two brigades (9th and 34th Armored Cavalry) and they wouldn't need to the transfer the PT-91s from one place to the other.

[urbanoid]

10th and 34th belong to the same 11th Division.

[Damian]

 

T-72 M1...slap on some ERA and off to the Caliphate front.

 

Well, at some point we will need to do something with large stocks of our T-72M1's, scrapping them is not the bst idea.

 

As for ERA, our ERAWA-2 offers even some degree of protection against tandem warheads, I wonder why we never exported it.

 

 

Why didn't they just give the Leopard 2A5s to the 9th Armored Cavalry Brigade? Then they wouldn't need to retrain two brigades (9th and 34th Armored Cavalry) and they wouldn't need to the transfer the PT-91s from one place to the other.

 

As urbanoid said, 10th ACB and 34th ACB belong to the same 11th ACD, so it is desired to unify 11th ACD equipment as much as possible, and increase it's strenght. When all new Leo2's will be here in Poland, and 34th ACB will be certified for combat operations, 11th ACD will be our strongest formation.

 

Also it is good end desired to rear 9th ACB with PT-91's, as this will unify it's equipment with other units stationing more to the eas, as they use PT-91's and T-72M1's.

 

This also have a more sense, as units in the east, equipped with worser equipment, are meant to eventually slow down enemy attacks, untill 11th ACD will come, and 11th ACD being in the western parts of country, is less vurnable to air attacks or missile attacks.

[Simon Tan]

You did. To Malaysia. On the PT-91Ms. Along with the Loara system.

Getting paid by Government of Iraq llc could be a problem though and Islamic Caliphate's financial dealings all go via Doha.

[urbanoid]

What do you mean Simon?

 

This is Loara and we have never exported it, even our own military only got a few of them.

 

 

 

Maybe what you were referring to was Obra?

[Damian]

Simon is reffering to ERAWA-2, and he is right, we exported it to Malayisa with PT-91M's. So my statement was not correct... damn how I could forget this?

 

Well, PHO is offering modernization package for T-72M1's, to bring them up to PT-91 standard, nobody however ordered it, pity, it is allways better than vanilla T-72M1.

[urbanoid]

You did. To Malaysia. On the PT-91Ms. Along with the Loara system.

 

I was asking about this.

[Damian]

Ooops then.

 

Yeah, only single series standard PZA Loara had been builded, and is kept by 11th ACD somewhere. Perhaps program for new SPAAG will be restarted when UMPG will be ready as it's new carrier.

 

Currently we only modernize ZSU-23-4 to ZSU-23-4MP Biała.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Damian

[Simon Tan]

It's all Polish to me.

[Przezdzieblo]

Simon is simply not very fond of PT-91M.

 

 

Btw. Are there any new critical voices about Pendekar? And any update on, AFAIR, the Russian plans of level it up?

[CV9030FIN]

Wow, those PT-91's that are transferred an other BDE look like brand new! Not a scratch on the paint...looks like POL Army haven't trained much with those...do you have separate "training" tanks and separate "combat" tanks?

 

BTW do you know what mod's POL Army will do to A5's IOT make them A5POL's? Is there good source on mod's made to A4POL's?

[Damian]

Wow, those PT-91's that are transferred an other BDE look like brand new! Not a scratch on the paint...looks like POL Army haven't trained much with those...do you have separate "training" tanks and separate "combat" tanks?

 

BTW do you know what mod's POL Army will do to A5's IOT make them A5POL's? Is there good source on mod's made to A4POL's?

 

Thats because before Leopard 2A5's were purchased, 34th ACB was not operational, there was only sceleton personell there to maintain equipment and infrastructure, and these PT-91's rarely drived out of their garages.

 

As for Leopard 2 modifications, yes we know what will happen, per Armaments Inspectorate requirements.

 

Priority in modernization to Leopard 2PL standard, have Leopard 2A4 tanks, we will have 142 of these.

 

Leopard 2PL modernization will include as follows:

 

1. Modernization will include rebuild of turrets in to KWS-2 standard (so like Leopard 2A5 and newer variants) so it means that EMES-15 primary sight will be raised and it's old window covered with armor, eliminating old weak zone, hull will also be most likely rebuilded.

2. Old special armor will be replaced with new one.

3. There will be spall liners inside as well.

4. Commander PERI-R17 will be replaced with new PERI-R17A3 with "Attica" thermal sight.

5. Driver will receive new vision blocks as well as rear view camera.

6. Turret and hull will receive attachement points for addon armor.

7. FCS will be improved with ability to use designed in Poland programmable multipurpose HE ammunition.

8. Turret traverse and main armament elevation servo's will be replaced from electro-hydraulic to fully electric system.

9. Some other improvements.

 

This is for basic level of improvements. There are four additional improvement levels.

 

level A:

External aditional modular armour on turret and hull. APU, STOPFire system, new drivers anti-blast seat.

 

level B:

Additional soft kill APS Obra-3 SSP-1 and aditional 16 81mm smoke granades, new inertial navigation system "Tain 30000".

 

level C:

EMES-15 improvement by replacing old thermal camera with next generation "Attica" thermal camera. Cooling system for crew and electronics block.

 

level D:

Additional RCWS designed in Poland (more info's here: Zdalnie sterowane moduły uzbrojenia OBR SM Tarnów)

 

 

Cost of basic level of modernization of a single Leopard 2A4 to Leopard 2PL will be around 2-2,5 mln EUR, which is around 8mln PLN.

Leopard 2PL with all improvements will be more or less equivalent for Leopard 2A7.

 

Leopard 2A5's will be modernized sometime in future, after A4's modernization will be completed.

 

Most likely also, a secondary armament will be replaced from MG3 to our own UKM-2000C or eventually some sort of more modern 7,62mm machine gun which might be developed in future as there are rumors our engineers are working on new belt fed 5,56mm machine gun based on similiar concept to our MSBS assault rifle, so with modularity in mind, should also be capable to use 7,62mm calliber.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Damian

[urbanoid]

I was going to explain this in a simpler manner, but I still couldn't. Well, that;s probably because I'm celebrating Mike Steele's birthday (thank you Mike, initially I wasnt't planning to drink today!)