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Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.


Damian

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I really like PL-01 concept or whatever it is - the idea is nice. Remotely operated heavily armoured turret is a step further compared to previous designs of "gun, sights and virtually no armor". Besides, it provides top protection for the crew. The only concern to me is the weight, which simply can't provide passive armor protection in the same league as other MBTs. Perhaps if active protection is both sufficiently cheap and effective, but I doubt, particularly the first... Only if you really want an air-transportable vehicle, but for Poland? Scale is up, go up to 55-60 t, add more passive protestion all round and maybe go for a 140 mm gun and you're done. This might be the basis for a HAPC/HIFV as well.

 

I haven't seen air-transportability mentioned, and in Poland's case own capabilities are limited to C-295s and C-130s. If the US can provide assistance, then anything can be airlifted, of course :D, so weight is no object (or you can always rent a few Antonovs). I suspect the weight will go up somewhat, and the end-product may well look like something like the Japanese Type 10 MBT which weighs in at under 50 tons, has very respectable protection and a crewed turret. So maybe an equivalent level protection could be obtained at round 40 tons with an remotely operated turret.

 

Well, going from 35 t to 50 t, so if you can cram 3 of these into one An-124, that'a a pretty good deal... Anyway, I agree that a 50 t MBT, compact, an ultra-modern may be a decent contender in the passive protection department to any other MBT, but... Call me a conservative, but another 5 or 10 t of passive protection will give a serious increase in survivability, even if you will delete or reduce air transportability. However, maybe the vehicle size, I mean track width and length just couldn't support a 55 t MBT. Maybe 35 t will be increased, but not to 55 or 60, nor 50 t, but I would guess up to maybe 40 t, if CV90 is the basis (even this is optimistic). I would suggest to increase hull dimensions and go for a conventional full-size MBT, even if its in the size/weight league of T-90 or Leclerc.

 

 

I highly suspect this is the direction in which things will go, especially since the "tank" and "IFV" projects are not going to be united by a common chassis (although that could change due to budget pressures). If the "tank" is going to be given to the armor branch which rather enjoys its Leo2s, they'll most likely put pressure on the design to increase protection. On the other hand, if it is given to the infantry as a fire support vehicle (this would presumably entail reorganizing the mech brigades to eliminate tank battalions and establishing fire support companies within mech bns), it could stay relatively light.

 

I also suspect a lot of it will ride on the question of cost. I agree that a few more tons would greatly increase protection. But what would it do to unit price?

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"Anders" is only a technology demonstrator, currently it's purpose is to be a test platform for some new, unconventional design solutions like hybrid engine and today it is tested as unmanned, fully autonomous platform.

 

New vehicle which is not ready yet (PL-01 is just a concept showing the general direction of research and development program) will be closer to the final product.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXbK2fjMDl4

 

You can see a 3d interior model in this video.

 

However when real hull prototype will be finished, crew will be somewhat isolated from additional ammunition stored in the rear.

 

Overall plans are to have ~16 or more rounds in autoloader and ~30-40 in hull rear. Of course engineers try to design all of this in such way, so crew will be capable to reload autoloader from vehicle interior.

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This seems like a good place to inquire about the progress of the AHS Krab. Early versions used a British turret and gun, I read that the gun was being replaced with a French? one. Will it keep the AS-90 turret, or is a new turret in the offing as well?

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The original AS-90/52 turret had been deeply modified by our engineers from HSW, actually this turret is only similiar in shape to original British one.

 

The gun-howitzer is indeed currently manufactured by NEXTER, but we plan to swtich production for Rhinemetall and in nearest future, HSW will manufacture it on it's own when they finish to build their own gun manufacturing line.

 

The biggest problems are with chassis, the original one was manufactured by PHO (former Bumar) but there are problems with it, and replacement is needed, HSW signed a deal with Otokar and perhaps we will manufacutre on licence chassis from T-155 Firtina.

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Sounds good! Personally, I'd prefer a German gun over a French one almost any day. Is this the same gun as is on the Pzh 2000? I seem to recall reading that in A-stan, that gun had a bit of problem with muzzle droop due to the temperatures, requiring a thermal sleeve to fix. Otherwise, seems to be a good bit of kit.

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Sounds good! Personally, I'd prefer a German gun over a French one almost any day. Is this the same gun as is on the Pzh 2000? I seem to recall reading that in A-stan, that gun had a bit of problem with muzzle droop due to the temperatures, requiring a thermal sleeve to fix. Otherwise, seems to be a good bit of kit.

 

No, it is still the same gun as in original, with some modifications (i.e. different muzzle break). However we do not have our own high calliber artillery manufacturing line, so we need to order such armament in foreign partners. This is not a good situation for us, and this is why HSW is currently building their own manufacturing line for such armament, when builded we will be capable to manufacture on our own not only gun-howitzers, but also gun-mortars and tank guns or other armament of such kind.

 

It is a pity that to build such production line, we needed to wait for so long untill economic and political situations allowed.

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PL-01 is just a concept vehicle.

 

New tank at least according to official informations will be based on new hull currently in development. If this plan will be success we will see.

 

As far as we know at this moment, new tank will be codenamed "Gepard" (Cheetah).

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I have some new informations.

 

First is that next month we will most likely know (finally!) if Germany agree to sold nest batch of approx 120 Leopard 2A5 to Poland. Also next month more details about modernization of 128 Leopard 2A4 we currently have, as far as we know everything is now prepared to start modernization process.

 

And there is more, in Poznan, WZM plant is currently preparing production/assembly lines for new engine, as far as we know in competition only two companies are left, Iveco and MTU. Unofficialy MTU is a favorite because it offers full spectrum of engines we need, in power ranging from 100 do 1100 KW.

 

http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/aktualnosci/news,1,5415,aktualnosci-z-polski,decyzja-w-sprawie-leopardow-juz-w-listopadzie
http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/aktualnosci/news,1,5414,aktualnosci-z-polski,serce-pojazdow-wojskowych-bic-bedzie-z-poznania
http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/aktualnosci/news,1,5406,aktualnosci-z-polski,centrum-silnikow-wojskowych-powstanie-w-poznaniu

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Some informations:

http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/home/articleshow/10179?t=Armia-unowoczesni-Leopardy

Soon modernization of our 128 Leopard 2A4 will start, we know more or less what will be upgraded. The new Leopard 2PL will have modernized FCS, sights, electronics, communication, but also improved will be armor, and what is very interesting, it's main armament. We do not know if Leopard 2PL will keep Rh-120/L44 gun, or will receive newer L55. It is also possible that new APFSDS ammunition from Germany will be bought.

http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/home/articleshow/10140?t=Silniki-dla-wojska-zbuduja-w-Poznaniu

Also, it seems we have official confirmation that WZM plant, will manufacture/assemble MTU engines for all kinds of vehicles currently in use and eventually fielded in future.

We also know right now, that approx 119/120 new Leopard 2's will be purchased from Germany and units that are considered to be equipped with them are 34th Armor Cavalry Brigade in Zagan, part of 11th Armor Cavalry Division, which part of is also 10th Armor Cavalry Brigade from Swietoszow that is currently using Leopard 2 tanks. The second unit that is considered is 1st Armor Brigade stationing in Wesola district in capital city of Warsaw, if this unit will be choosen, then perhaps I will have opprotunity to take a closer look to these new Leo2's.

 

So a lot of good news recently.

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Improvement to the cannon could also mean that Poland modifies the breach to handle the higher pressures of the more modern ammunitions that the Rh120 L/55 can fire. The Leopard 2 A5 were modified the same way to have ammo commonality with the A6 model.

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Yes indeed, it might be that way. It is possible that besides development of our own ammunition, we will purchase new APFSDS from Germany.

 

Besides DM33, we had a project of our own APFSDS, but it was not as potent as DM53 or DM63.

 

Perhaps our engineers will focus on development of HE and programmable HE rounds, while APFSDS will come from Germany.

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Today Minister of Defence, mr. Tomasz Siemoniak, will sign agreement with his German partners, to purchase 119 Leopard 2 tanks (105 Leopard 2A5 and 14 Leopard 2A4).

Some news in polish, for non polish speakers, translator use advised.

http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/home/articleshow/10455?t=Polska-kupuje-kolejne-Leopardy
http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/aktualnosci/news,1,5612,aktualnosci-z-polski,druga-brygada-pancerna-z-niemiec
http://www.defence24.pl/news_niemieckie-leopardy-dla-polskiej-armii
After this agreement signed and tanks sended through border, Poland will be user of one of the largets Leopard 2 tanks fleet in Europe and world. We will have 247 of these tanks.

Also there is prepared modernization of these tanks to new standard, codenamed Leopard 2PL.

http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/home/articleshow/10463?t=Pierwsze-polskie-czolgi-Leopard-ida-do-remontu

From presentation it looks like tanks will be modernized to standard similiar to Leopard 2S.

 

http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/home/articleshow/10476?t=Polska-kupila-kolejne-Leopardy

 

Agreement signed, so tanks are now purchased, only waiting for their arrival left.

Edited by Damian
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After this agreement signed and tanks sended through border, Poland will be user of one of the largets Leopard 2 tanks fleet in Europe and world. We will have 247 of these tanks.

 

The largest active Leopard 2 fleet maybe, but not the largest.

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After this agreement signed and tanks sended through border, Poland will be user of one of the largets Leopard 2 tanks fleet in Europe and world. We will have 247 of these tanks.

Thanks for the info Damian. Do you have a breakdown of how many t-72/Pt-91 and Leo will be operated in the future? Poland is going to field one of the largest MBT fleet amongst NATO countries.

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