Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.

[J.Hawk]

Actually Israeli turrets were cancelled because they are not designed for our climate, and these turrets failed tests.

 

We had similiar problems with Spike ATGM engines, which during autumn and winter generate smoke which can point out position of the launcher.

 

Other thing is that indeed, there is no sence in to modernizing BWP-1, it is just plain waste of money, even as a stop gap. In the end it was decided to go with completely new vehicle.

That's interesting because, well, aren't the Czech Pandurs using those turrets? Seems like there was a lost opportunity here, because there is now talk of developing an unmanned turret with precisely that kind of armament (cannon, mg, spike) for the Rosomak, and for the new tracked IFV. And, in general, as neat a vehicle as the Rosomak is, going with the Pandur jointly with the Czechs would have made the vehicle cheaper and future development easier.

[Damian]

As far as I know, our armed forces were not happy with these turrets during tests.

 

Besides this for Poland deal with Israel to purchase and even manufacture such turrets is not proffiting for our arms industry.

 

Our industry is perfectly capable to develop unmanned weapon stations and turrets on it's own, so we not only can provide such solutions for our own armed forces, but we have perspectives for exports for our own account.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Damian

[Ben Dejo]

We had similiar problems with Spike ATGM engines, which during autumn and winter generate smoke which can point out position of the launcher.

How cold was the temperature in the autumn, also was it humidity high? I wonder if this is smoke or steam condensing, do you have any video of any of these firings?

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ben Dejo

[Damian]

No, no videos. However in Poland autumn can be rather cold and wet.

[Damian]

Something that can be interesting for people interested in wheeled APC's armor protection.

 

 

Rosomak after successfull tests against heavy machine gun fire in calliber 14,5mm.

 

Below is a link to article (unfortunetely only in Polish) about Rosomak development and service history.

 

http://gdziewojsko.wordpress.com/wozy-bojowe/kto-rosomak/

 

And there is a photo of glacis addon armor for Rosomak, after successfull tests against PG-7V and heavy machine gun fire.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Damian

[J.Hawk]

Speaking of modernizing a vehicle that really badly needs it...

 

"Historic tank to return to Poland from Afghanistan

Renault FT-17, a unique remnant of the 1920 Polish-Soviet war, has been found in Afghanistan thanks to long-standing efforts by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of National Defence. The tank will be soon transported to Poland."

 

 

http://www.mfa.gov.pl/en/news/historic_tank_to_return_to_poland_from_afghanistan

[Damian]

Actually it allready had been mostly repaired and was presented to public. Currently there is performed work to bring it back to working condition and to restore it's interior.

[J.Hawk]

 

 

 

 

 

We had similiar problems with Spike ATGM engines, which during autumn and winter generate smoke which can point out position of the launcher.

 

 

 

I think it's odd it's becoming news only now, after years of Spike use. One would also expect to hear similar complaints from Finland, for example...

 

I haven't seen any spike videos from autumn or winter, but in this one the missile has very little signature, though the launch probably took place in spring or early summer.

 

Edited August 28, 2013 by J.Hawk

[Damian]

The thing is that this problem is known for a very long time, only know the problem had been bring back to lights by our "incredibly intelligent" mass media.

 

I also heard that the problem might had been solved some time ago.

[Ben Dejo]

Speaking of modernizing a vehicle that really badly needs it...

 

"Historic tank to return to Poland from Afghanistan

Renault FT-17, a unique remnant of the 1920 Polish-Soviet war, has been found in Afghanistan thanks to long-standing efforts by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of National Defence. The tank will be soon transported to Poland."

 

 

http://www.mfa.gov.pl/en/news/historic_tank_to_return_to_poland_from_afghanistan

What to arm it with...so many choices

[Pavel Novak]

Hello

Does anybody knows how many polish produced T-72 were exported to Iraq?

[Damian]

Unfortunetely not, we only know that some were exported, and that's all.

[J.Hawk]

So, an "artist's impression" of what the next Polish tank might look like...so far it's shaping up to look like updated CV90120.

 

http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/aktualnosci/news,1,4967,aktualnosci-z-polski,lekki-czolg-konsorcjum-pho-i-bae-systems-na-razie-w-grafice

[Pavel Novak]

Unfortunetely not, we only know that some were exported, and that's all.

 

Basically my problem is that I can not find where the Iraqis get that 1000 or so T-72. When I try to find producers numbers or some assumptions about producers capability I end with much lower numer of T-72 exported to Iraq than 1000 pieces. Sipri for example stated in its database that only 550 T-72 were exported to Iraq but Sipri database is very inaccurate in many things and one can not depends on it.

 

Zaloga states in his book M1 Abrams vs T-72 Ural that Iraq received only 100 T-72 from the USSR but that they bought on the whole 1038 T-72 with probably nothing from its own production which seems not to start. Now Czechoslovakia exported to Iraq only 90 T-72M1 in years 1986-1987. That leaves 848 T-72 to be supplied by Poland and that would be whole Polish export production of T-72.

[Damian]

And guess what, we have first photos of new variant of WPB "Anders" (despite rumors that program was completely cancelled and vehicle had been disassembled), and a covered technology demonstrator of something that looks like a tank.

 

 

And some other things.

 

 

 

This year MSPO will be very exciting, I will be there 4th september so expect more detailed photos to be uploaded from 5th onwards.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Damian

[Damian]

Some more photos from preparations.

 

http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/imageslibrary/GetImage/25585
http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/ImagesLibrary/GetImage/25586
http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/ImagesLibrary/GetImage/25588
http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/ImagesLibrary/GetImage/25589
http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/ImagesLibrary/GetImage/25590
http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/ImagesLibrary/GetImage/25593
http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/ImagesLibrary/GetImage/25597

[Chris Werb]

Are there any open sources for current Polish armed forces doctrine? I'm interested in learning about the operational concepts into which these various vehicles will fit.

 

Yes, I know, google is my friend! http://www.wp.mil.pl/pliki/File/English/strategia_obronnosci_eng.pdf

[J.Hawk]

How good is your Polish, Chris?

 

Are there any open sources for current Polish armed forces doctrine? I'm interested in learning about the operational concepts into which these various vehicles will fit.

 

Yes, I know, google is my friend! http://www.wp.mil.pl/pliki/File/English/strategia_obronnosci_eng.pdf

How good is your Polish, Chris?

 

Official documents are boring as heck and, frankly, don't tell you much. For example:

 

http://www.specops.pl/vortal/download/files/DZIALANIA%20TAKTYCZNE%20WOJSK%20LADOWYCH.pdf

 

There are a number of blogs that deal with these questions, and there you often get interesting insights. One of my favorites has been Waldemar Skrzypczak's blog, which he hasn't been updating since he's become a deputy minister of defense. He's generally considered to be one of the most capable general officers of the last couple of decades, commanded a multinational division in Iraq, studied in the West, big-time modernizer.

 

http://www.skrzypczak.blog.interia.pl/

 

Gdzie zaczyna sie wojsko has a number of rather lengthy articles on contemporary military affairs, but concentrating more on military hardware. So if you want to read about things like the Rosomak, Anders, Leopard 2, PT-91, in Polish service and how they fit into current military thinking, this is a good blog to read.

 

http://gdziewojsko.wordpress.com/

 

I'd also recommend Z Afganistanu, which covers Polish troops in Afghanistan. Lots of pics of troops, AFVs, helos in action.

 

http://zafganistanu.pl/

[Damian]

@Chris

 

Also what is worth to mention, currently after Afghanistan our politicians are not so "hot" to send our troops overseas, so we are getting back to focus more on our armed forces primary mission, defending our own country.

 

So IMHO priority will be still anti air and anti missile defence, then navy modernization (because navy situation is critical), and then air forces and ground forces modernization.

[Damian]

Ok, it seems that new photos are leaking to internet even before MSPO starts.




This is a concept technology demonstrator of new tank designed by PHO and BAE.

The turret is clearly unmanned design, we can see RCWS on top of turret and active protection system elements.

Hull seems to be based on CV90 but is deeply modified, also vehicles seems to include some sort of Stealth technology.

 

BTW, I am not author of these photos, it seems they leaked to internet via someones facebook and then ended on one of polish military forums.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Damian

[J.Hawk]

@Chris

 

Also what is worth to mention, currently after Afghanistan our politicians are not so "hot" to send our troops overseas, so we are getting back to focus more on our armed forces primary mission, defending our own country.

 

So IMHO priority will be still anti air and anti missile defence, then navy modernization (because navy situation is critical), and then air forces and ground forces modernization.

 

Yes, that about sums it up. Afghanistan was useful both from the perspective of confirming alliance committments and training the younger cohorts of officers and NCOs, but now that mission is winding down (for better or worse) and the fact remains that Poland is still the easternmost major country within both NATO and the EU. To the east you have Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine, all of which face the potential of domestic political instability, regime change, even civil war, so there are a lot of scenarios associated with these problems. Preparing for them means investing in tactical ABM systems, air- and sea-launched cruise missiles, and of course land forces prepared for both for rapid intervention and, if the worst comes to worst, going toe to toe with the best Russia can throw at NATO. Luckily, at the moment Russia's best is not all that good and not likely to improve any time soon, but one should not take these things for granted. Moreover, both US and Germany seem cognizant of Poland's fairly unique role within NATO and are doing their share to improve Poland's military potential. There's talk of a sale of JASSMs, Germany for its part will transfer more Leo2s and will likely enter into some kind of lease/joint training arrangement on Type 212 subs.

 

Before I forget: Dziennik Zbrojny is another good electronic resource dealing with the Polish security environment, though it does not shy away from dealing with broader issues either.

 

http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/

[Max H]

Ok, it seems that new photos are leaking to internet even before MSPO starts.

 

 

This is a concept technology demonstrator of new tank designed by PHO and BAE.

 

The turret is clearly unmanned design, we can see RCWS on top of turret and active protection system elements.

 

Hull seems to be based on CV90 but is deeply modified, also vehicles seems to include some sort of Stealth technology.

 

BTW, I am not author of these photos, it seems they leaked to internet via someones facebook and then ended on one of polish military forums.

 

 

I hereby dub it the polandkava

[Loopycrank]

It's the merkagavin made flesh!

[J.Hawk]

The "PL-01" (a.k.a., Gepard) is a good idea given the current Polish needs. There's an imminent, perhaps even overdue, requirement to replace T-72s and PT-91s. Some of this will be accomplished by the acquisition of two more Leo2 battalions (for a total of four), which would give the land forces a total of two armored brigades (2 tank, 1 mech bn each, plus artillery, etc.). Since there is no way enough Leos can be procured to replace all MBTs in Polish service, a fire support vehicle/tank destroyer would be a good addition to mechanized brigades (currently 1 tank, 2 mech bns). It's a relatively inexpensive way to increase the number of 120mm guns in the army, phase out 125mm-armed vehicles, and ensure greater logistical compatibility.

[LeoTanker]

 

@Chris

 

Also what is worth to mention, currently after Afghanistan our politicians are not so "hot" to send our troops overseas, so we are getting back to focus more on our armed forces primary mission, defending our own country.

 

So IMHO priority will be still anti air and anti missile defence, then navy modernization (because navy situation is critical), and then air forces and ground forces modernization.

 

Preparing for them means investing in tactical ABM systems, air- and sea-launched cruise missiles, and of course land forces prepared for both for rapid intervention and, if the worst comes to worst, going toe to toe with the best Russia can throw at NATO.

 

Sorry about the OT, but why on earth are Polish ppls taxpayers monney/MOD-funds used for investments in "tactical ABM systems"??

 

And pls do not tell any Swedish journo about Poland beeing wiling and able to go toe-to-toe with the best Russia can throw at the West or our politicians will happily slash our pathetic current defence budget to zero, and instead happily spend the monney on lowering income/corporate taxes even further or something simmilar in order to buy yet an other (upcoming) national election.

 

The Polandkava looks like a dream though. Nice job there.