Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.

[Damian]

 

 

Is there any good english language sources book on the Polish army? The newest I have is about 20 years out of date.

 

I have no idea, hmmm, I wonder if anyone ever bothered with such topic to write a book, not to mention that in last few years MoD and Armed Forces like to keep lots of things classified.

 

Tough I found such thing. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Poland-Vehicles-Modern-Polish-Army-10th-Cavalry-Tankograd-7025-Reference-Book-/361267754761

 

In general it might be problematic, you can also purchase our military magazines via internet.

 

http://www.magnum-x.pl/

 

They have several different magazines.

 

http://zbiam.pl/

 

And here they also have lots of various magazines.

 

 

 

I do wonder if there is an opportunity here for the Baltic states, in that you will in the next few years be surplusing a lot of 2S1s and T72s. I cant help but think that might be pretty useful for mechanising the Balts, out of date though it is. Even BM21 is not going to be substantially outranged by the shorter ranged Russian systems.

 

We have enough of these vehicles in storage right now, if Baltic states would want they can purchase them, heh they can even pay a bit more and get them upgraded for example T-72M1's to PT-91's. Tough we would wish to keep some significant numbers as reserves, besides there are ideas to create mechanized brigades within territorial defense forces.

 

 

 

Yeah I take the point about undermanning. This is a problem the British Army seems to be suffering from at the moment as well. We always arguably have, and we managed to get round the problem by creating task forces made up of elements of other battalions, but with a smaller army (and a commitment to reducing numbers in favour of reservists) I have to question how easy it is to do that now.

 

We are in a bit better situation because nations morale is high, and people just want to serve, so there is no problem with finding people wanting to be soldiers, it's more problem of a time and money.

 

Meanwhile:

 

 

Edited February 23, 2016 by Damian

[Dark_Falcon]

Jane's has an article on the Leopard 2PL upgrade that includes some details about the schedule for the upgrade:

 

 

The first prototype Leopard 2PL is planned to be completed in Germany in March 2018 and delivered to the Polish Armed Forces for evaluation in the third quarter (Q3) of 2018. This will include two tests to validate the upgraded protection level offered by the new 2PL standard.

 

The first MBT would be followed by another five more prototypes, also modernised in Germany and planned to deliver by mid-2018.

 

The first pre-production batch of 12 tanks are to be upgraded in Poland with co-operation from German technicians by Q1 2019. The remaining 110 Leopard 2A4s will then be modernized in Poland without external assistance from Q2 2019 to Q3 2020.

 

[Damian]

Video from recent meeting with our MoD, unfortunetaly this year I was unable to participate. However if you wonder how PT-91 looks inside, watch from 8:35.

However one of my friends participated, this is more or less what he was able to get from officials.

1. T-72M1 tanks won't be modernized, they exhausted their upgrade potential, it's waste of money to upgrade them, which would be expensive, so it's better to purchase new tanks.

2. We will stay with Leopard 2's and PT-91's, however we won't develop new MBT on our own as possible replacement for PT-91, we would only need around 200 tanks, it's not feasible to develop such vehicle on our own from economic point of view, so perhaps more Leo2's, maybe other western MBT (M1), who knows.

3. WWB Gepard project, it seems the general idea is it will weight maybe 35-40 tons or more, but it's still unclear what is general concept of this vehicle, it's neither light tank, neither MBT it seems.

4. New IFV, the amphibious capability is in general still analized if it's needed or not. Hard to say what they are thinking about it, tough perhaps if in the end amphibious capabilities will not be needed, a avaiable on the market vehicle will be choosen and mated with our unmanned turret ZSSW-30, it might be CV90 for example.

So it's all again ends with money.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Damian

[Damian]

And speaking about defense industry in general.

MSPO exhibition, it's performed every year and most likely I will visit it this year. Strongly recommend to anyone interested in the subject.

[Damian]

 

Large excercises from 1995, codenamed "Zapora".

[JW Collins]

3. WWB Gepard project, it seems the general idea is it will weight maybe 35-40 tons or more, but it's still unclear what is general concept of this vehicle, it's neither light tank, neither MBT it seems.

 

 

Perhaps a sort of middle-weight "cavalry tank"? In design terms something comparable to the CV90120 or the cancelled XM1202?

[Damian]

 

3. WWB Gepard project, it seems the general idea is it will weight maybe 35-40 tons or more, but it's still unclear what is general concept of this vehicle, it's neither light tank, neither MBT it seems.

 

 

Perhaps a sort of middle-weight "cavalry tank"? In design terms something comparable to the CV90120 or the cancelled XM1202?

 

 

Actually lot of reasonable voices outside and inside military/MoD says that we do not need a damn light tank or medium tank, we just need main battle tanks, afterall our doctrine says very clearly that primary mission of our armed forces is defending our country, not runing after goat lovers in mountains.

 

More and more people actually claim the whole idea of light tank was made just to take money from MoD.

[Damian]

http://www.defence24.pl/329127,krab-gotowy-do-produkcji-seryjnej

 

155mm AHS "Krab" is finally ready for mass production.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Re Leopard 2 PL, is the armour improved on that found in Leopard 2A5?

[Damian]

It's said turret with addon armor will offer better protection, no changes to hull tough, weight restrictions are reason.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Ok well thats fair enough, probably better to put it on the turret. Maybe they can put some reactive armour boxes on the front hull like Chally if its a problem.

[Panzermann]

Leopard 2 was built for hull down defence anyway.

[Damian]

Hull would also be upgraded but for some reasons, Leopard 2 hull for suspension upgrades, need some more modifications, i heard it includes cutting and welding suspension attachement points. This would increase costs of upgrade above acceptable levels and thus it was decided to not upgrade hulls protection... at least for now, it would not be illogical to upgrade hulls later.

 

It is also still uncertain if Rhinemetall will improve armor protection by only using addon armor modules or replacing also base armor.

 

Plan is also to have Leopard 2A5's to receive similiar upgrades in future, and because A5's already have improved suspension, they might receive hull addon armor upgrades and turret armor upgrades within single modernization.

 

Besides this there are some rumors we might not only be able to eventually use US equipment that will be stored in Poland, as our President suggested some time ago such things are considered, but also in US there are voices that we should be equipped by US more extensively.

 

http://www.defensenews.com/videos/defense-news/tv/2016/03/13/81729050/

 

Watch this video, it's mentioned somewhere near the end.

[Panzermann]

Just bolting new modules on the outside should be decidedly cheaper than opening the welded cavities in the turret.

[Chris Werb]

http://www.defensenews.com/videos/defense-news/tv/2016/03/13/81729050/

 

Watch this video, it's mentioned somewhere near the end.

 

Excellent video. I do wonder how many of our leaders realise how far ahead of us the Russians are in many respects and how deeply flawed our concept of defence is vs them?

 

More, here: http://breakingdefense.com/2015/10/russian-drone-threat-army-seeks-ukraine-lessons/

[Damian]

Well, now when we know, we should just do something about it, still tough people need to realize we have new cold war here, and we need to prepare accordingly.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

 

 

 

http://www.defensenews.com/videos/defense-news/tv/2016/03/13/81729050/

 

Watch this video, it's mentioned somewhere near the end.

Excellent video. I do wonder how many of our leaders realise how far ahead of us the Russians are in many respects and how deeply flawed our concept of defence is vs them?

 

More, here: http://breakingdefense.com/2015/10/russian-drone-threat-army-seeks-ukraine-lessons/

 

Fewer than you think Chris. MOD I understand from the Charles Heyman book disbanded the MLRS regiment, and instead are parceling them out as batteries to AS90 Regiments. Which strikes me as clueless, but that is about par for the course. Fortunately we do have GMLRS, though as the Russians are bringing Tornado S on stream, its not quite the advantage it once was.

 

Poland was making a new 122mm rocket system based on Grad, is there anything else with longer range being developed? Just wondered if you might order GMLRS at some point.

[Damian]

Stuart, yes we have 122mm WR-40 Langusta MLRS being upgrade to BM-21 Grad.

 

 

There was also developed WR-40 Langusta-2 which had a secondary missile rack with autoloader just like RM-70. However it was not purchased (at least yet, who knows in future).

 

 

In development is also WR-300 Homar, which is MRLS and HIMARS equivalent, actually it is believed that in the end HIMARS system will be choosen and mounted on our Jelcz truck.

 

 

This is how it might look like.

 

It's planned to manufacture around 54 in the first batch, maybe later in future more batches will be ordered.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Damian

[Stuart Galbraith]

Woot. Buy as many of those as you like, NATO needs some decent depthfire capablity.

 

 

 

 

You know, im really happy to see Poland nurturing its defence industry like this. Its just kind of heartbreaking how bloody awfully our own Government has done the same over the past 25 years. Someone in Whitehall really wants a size 10 boot put up their ass.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Stuart Galbraith

[Damian]

Well, the problem we have is our economy and budget, if we could have economy and budget like UK, we could do so much more and so much faster.

 

Actually truth to be told, here in Poland we are like WTF why western European countries have such problems with defense budgets considering how much more you guys are wealthier than we are.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Im not sure I get it either. I can only assume a lot of people in Government assumed we would never ever have to face a threat in Europe, or indeed anywhere, that couldnt be met by the Americans doing it all for us. The last 5 years you would think be something of a wake up call, but apparently not.

 

 

 

 

I digress, its good to see your politicians arent as clueless or unable to remember history as ours.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Stuart Galbraith

[Damian]

I would not bet too much on our politicians... tough indeed, having Russia so close and doing what they are doing is making them more sober for sure. If we only could get more money.

[Dark_Falcon]

Rich Smith at The Motley Fool looks at Poland's tank fleet and the upgrades to the Leopard 2 part of said fleet:

 

 

Strange bedfellows
In particular, it's turning to Germany. In 2002, Poland bought 128 used Leopard 2A4 main battle tanks from Germany, using them to outfit its own 10th Armoured Cavalry Brigade. Subsequent purchases of 14 more 2A4s and 105 more advanced Leopard 2A5s lifted the number of Leopards in Poland's inventory to 247 units. Today, German-built Leopard tanks outnumber Polish-built PT-91s.

 

And as we just learned, Poland has embarked upon an ambitious project to overhaul and upgrade perhaps its entire fleet of Leopards to a much more modern configuration, dubbed the "Leopard 2PL."

"Tanks" for (almost) nothing
As reported by Defense-Update.com last week, Poland has contracted with German industrial conglomerate Rheinmetall to begin modernizing its original fleet of 128 Leopard 2A4s with new thermal sights, expanding magazine capacity, and improving turret armor. Modernization work is to begin next year, and conclude in 2020. At that time, Poland may elect to upgrade the 14 additional Leopard 2A4s it bought subsequently. Janes.com thinks that when all's said and done, modernization work on the first batch of tanks could cost Poland $606 million -- about $4.7 million per tank. By extension, that implies the cost of upgrading all of Poland's 2A4s could surpass $672 million.

And even then, Poland may not be done. While Janes says the upgrades will effectively transform Poland's old Leopard 2A4s into more advanced Leopard 2A5 tanks, to truly unify its tank force, the tanks bought as 2A5s will also need to be modified as well. Converting the whole motor pool to the Leopard 2PL configuration is a process that would cost even more millions.

What it means to investors
DefenseIndustryDaily.com notes that globally, Germany's sales of used Leopards are "choking sales of competitive designs," such as the Abrams main battle tank produced by General Dynamics (NYSE:GD). What's more, Germany is grabbing market share in Eastern Europe in a very clever manner.

Describing the November 2013 deal to sell Poland 14 Leopard 2A4s and 105 2A5s, DID called the sale "incredibly cheap" at a total cost of just $241 million -- about $2 million per tank. Of course, Germany is now turning around and charging more than twice that upfront cost to upgrade the tanks through Rheinmetall. But with so much money sunk into the initial investment already, Poland had no choice but to ante up for the upgrades. New tanks from General Dynamics, after all, would have cost even more.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Dark_Falcon

[Chris Werb]

Woot. Buy as many of those as you like, NATO needs some decent depthfire capablity.

 

I think France had something like 54 M270MLRS launchers and now fields 13(!). We also must have a few spare as we only upgraded c. 36 of a similar quantity and converted about half a dozen to ARVs. The Germans are meant to have a significant surplus of M270s in store (are only keeping 38 active), and Norway has 12 that never entered service. Why not just GIVE them to Poland to let them spend their defence budget on other stuff their armed forces really need?

[methos]

That article is very bad written, from somebody who seems to lack basic understanding of the defence industry in general. "Germany's Krauss-Maffei Wegmann, a subsidiary of defense giant Giat Industries S.A."... I didn't know that KMW is now owned by GIAT, given that GIAT's core company did become Nexter about a decade ago and actually KMW is still it's own company, both belonging to a holding located in the Netherlands. GIAT Industries S.A. is not a Dutch naamloze vennootschap (N.V) as mentioned in the press release from KMW and Nexter, so the author is clearly wrong. Also KMW owns 50% of the holding company.

 

By selling Leopard 2 tanks to Poland, which already operates the Leopard 2 tank, Germany is "choking sales of competitive designs"? Doesn't seem likely that Poland would have chosen investing into another type of tank requiring an all new infrastructure. Having three/four different types of tanks requiring their own infrastructure (T-72, PT-91, Leopard 2A4 and M1A2/Leclerc) is not affordable for a country that needs to replace/upgrade a lot other obsolete equipment (BWP-1, BRDM, etc.) aswell.

 

The low price for the recent Leopard 2A5 purchase is the results of the tanks being second-hand, worn-out tanks with demands for future updates (i.e. new thermal imagers are required, as the production of Ophelios-P spare parts was ceased). This deal is made by the German ministry of defence/government and not the result of an elaborate evil masterplan from Rheinmetall to beat (the in Europe non-existing) presence of General Dynamics on the tank market.