Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Im sure there was someone on here saying that at least part of the problem was prompt delivery of the tanks, but yes, I can see that politics is always a factor in tank procurement.

[Doug]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I dont remember the Americans fighting alongside Marlborough or Wellington. 

 

 

Very true, and don't forget some of our ancestors fought with Marcus Aurelius against the barbarian hordes! 🤪

Edited September 28, 2021 by Doug

[sunday]

1 minute ago, Doug said:

Very true, and don't forget some of our ancestors fought with Marcus Aurelius against the barbarian hordes! 

Do you have Welsh ancestry?

[Stuart Galbraith]

4 minutes ago, Doug said:

Very true, and don't forget some of our ancestors fought with Marcus Aurelius against the barbarian hordes! 🤪

Yours maybe. Mine were German and probably among the Barbarians.

 

[Doug]

Actually I'm Scottish, so chances are my ancestors were busy stealing sheep while the legionaries' backs were turned. 

[sunday]

5 minutes ago, Doug said:

Actually I'm Scottish, so chances are my ancestors were busy stealing sheep while the legionaries' backs were turned. 

Well, there are Lowland Scots, with quite a lot of Anglo-Saxon blood that fled from the Normans after 1066, and whose lowland English dialect, as in Robert Burns work, could be considered as the purest form of English, without French influences, then there are Scots of mainly Celtic descent, both in Lowland and Highlands, whose forefathers exterminated the Scots of the Roman era, also known as the Picts, and finally there are Scots of Norse descent, mainly in the Isles.

Then there are the Borderers, bunch of reivers... 

I spent some months in the Glasgow area back when Major was PM, and there was a Spitting Image doll of Tony Blair.

However, I am open to corrections, as I was not born there.

Edited September 28, 2021 by sunday

[DB]

One would probably find that the reason that only 148 are getting upgraded is because the original 230-ish are robbed out shells that haven't been maintained at all and aren't fit for it.

It's standard practice for stuff that our armed services want to replace - like historically significant (listed) buildings in London. You let them rot until no case can be made for keeping them so you are forced to buy new stuff.

Then you life extend them until enough people die.

[Stuart Galbraith]

5 minutes ago, Doug said:

Actually I'm Scottish, so chances are my ancestors were busy stealing sheep while the legionaries' backs were turned. 

Yeah, Ive some from there too. Reputedly we lost the Clan castle in a Card Game, which kind of fits with the familys dissolute manner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culcreuch_Castle

[Stuart Galbraith]

6 minutes ago, DB said:

One would probably find that the reason that only 148 are getting upgraded is because the original 230-ish are robbed out shells that haven't been maintained at all and aren't fit for it.

It's standard practice for stuff that our armed services want to replace - like historically significant (listed) buildings in London. You let them rot until no case can be made for keeping them so you are forced to buy new stuff.

Then you life extend them until enough people die.

From what Bob Griffin told me about Challenger 2, none of them were actually scrapped so much as parts reclaimed. Most of the Hulls probably still exist in some form or another, although some probably have combat damage and have never been repaired.  According to arrse there is still a fuel tanker at ARRSE waiting repair nearly 10 years on from RPG damage, so this is not unlikely.

Im still trying to wrap my head around why we are buying 20 less Apache E's to replace the D model, even thought he threat of enemy tanks arguably has gone up. Its certainly not because they are significantly more capable.

[Damian]

26 minutes ago, DB said:

One would probably find that the reason that only 148 are getting upgraded is because the original 230-ish are robbed out shells that haven't been maintained at all and aren't fit for it.

It's standard practice for stuff that our armed services want to replace - like historically significant (listed) buildings in London. You let them rot until no case can be made for keeping them so you are forced to buy new stuff.

Then you life extend them until enough people die.

Turret and hull structures can be repaired or recycled. Look at US, it is not a well known fact, I only learned about it talking with guys from GDLS, but all M1A2SEPv3's are actually completely new build tanks. What GDLS is doing, is that they receive old M1A1's, and instead of refurbishing them, they disassemble them, cut turret and hull structures, what is usable they reuse/recycle, and then weld completely new hulls and turrets with some reused plates, while all other subcomponents and subsystems are completely new.

[Doug]

30 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Im still trying to wrap my head around why we are buying 20 less Apache E's to replace the D model, even thought he threat of enemy tanks arguably has gone up. Its certainly not because they are significantly more capable.

Aren't they? They must have some new capabilities. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Drone datalink which I suspect we probably wont be using very often if at all. Not sure if we are getting a rotor folding mechanisim as our WAH64D's have. And lastly, the kicker, it has less engine power than the D models we are giving up, because we want commonality with the Americans. Im not sure why, we had commonality with the EH101 which I would ahve thought shipboard would have been more important. 

[DB]

The RTM322 is now French, with RR no longer involved in manufacture. The difference between the latest iteration of the T700 and the RTM322 also means that there is far less advantage than there used to be. There would be a significant cost associated with managing a unique type, and a massive recertification bill, including doing all the safety documentation again when there is a formal agreement that qualification by the US to meet their needs is (broadly speaking, there is bound to be some rework) suitable for UK qualification, which should mean a much smoother procurement.

[Mighty_Zuk]

There's also something called being too much of a team player. It discourages others from independence.

[R011]

5 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I dont remember the Americans fighting alongside Marlborough or Wellington. 

 

 

They fought alongside Louis XVI and Boney, though.

Edited September 28, 2021 by R011
Come to think of it, they did fight alongside Marlborough. Indeed they fought alongside every English and British government from James I to George Ii.

[Adam Peter]

7 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Europe doesnt have the industrial capacity to build the military equipment it needs to defend itself as it is.

Germany goes big, and Hungary became their biggest customer (numbers in the Twitter-linked article).

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

They are selling Hungary the submarines?

 

[Adam Peter]

Resellers for France?

Among smaller things like WiSent 2/Leguan

12 2A4

44 2A7+

24 PzH 2000

218 Lynx

16 H225M

20 H415M

is ordered / some in service now. As expected, we gave the direct/indirect euromonies to tante Angie.

[Stuart Galbraith]

What kind of timescale is that for delivery?

[Adam Peter]

Latest I found 2025. Refurb 2A4s are here, as the H145Ms. The first H225M is under construction, but it will be a SOF config with a bit long acceptance test, rest after the tests, ~ 2023. A7+ not before 2023 (in service).

Lynx, few complete, rest local production in a joint venture factory. Found no timeline.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Apologies, I dont quite understand. Are you saying 44 2A7's arriving by 2025? Thats barely 11 a year.

 

[Adam Peter]

Should arrive and enter service in 2023, together with the 3 bridges and ~5 heavy recovery vehicles, and an undisclosed number of trucks. Plus the PzH 2000s.

Practically we have to restart the armor business till then, as we have about ~15 T-72 and AFAIK no SP Arty now in service.

The latest items from the rest of the list supposed to arrive till 2025.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Fair enough, thats not bad actually.

Yeah, im glad you are getting back into Armour, Eastern Europe needs all it can get.

[Damian]

@Stuart Galbraith

Based on information from yesterday Defence24Day, by 2035 Polish Land Forces will have:

- 250 M1A2SEPv3 (M1A2PL?) MBT's;

- 120 Wilk MBT's;

- 247 Leopard 2PL/Leopard 2A5 MBT's (Leopard 2A5's are meant to be modernized, Leopard 2A7PL, this standard was mentioned at Defence24Day);

- 588 Borsuk IFV's;

+ T-72M1R, PT-91 and BMP-1 vehicles in reserve or in battalions not rearmed with new vehicles by 2035.

Of course this is just a plan, and this might change.

[Stuart Galbraith]

When do you get the Abrams?