Staff Versus Knife

[ShotMagnet]

Had a good-natured this-and-that with a coworker about whom would come off better in a fight, if the one was armed with a staff and the other was armed with a knife.

 

Assuming equivalent levels of skill regarding the respective weapons, we came to the mutual conclusion that what mattered would be quickness.

 

Couldn't let it go at that, though; not when there's all of tanknet to consult on the matter.

 

Opinions? Facts? Fire away.

 

 

 

Shot

[sunday]

Supposing same skills, I'll go with staff is there is room around to swing, and knife in environments like a elevator cabin.

[Colin]

A lot depends on awareness, you know a guy has a staff when he comes to you, but often you can be knifed before you even know it's happening.

[DougRichards]

Wouldn't a lot depend on what the staff carrier was trying to do? If an assailant with a knife came at someone who had the chance to grab an improvised staff, and assuming equal size and strength (if the staff user was much weaker than the knifeman then the knifeman may just be able to grab the staff and disarm the staff carrier) then someone with a staff may be able to hold the knife wielder off long enough for the knifeman to decide that he would be better off going somewhere else.

 

By improvised staff I mean broomstick, star picket, walking stick, that sort of thing, in a way that the knifeman didn't expect.

 

I remember reading a 'survival' book many years ago that suggested that even an umbrella could be a useful weapon - but not swung as a sword or a staff, but used as a spear, giving the user greater reach over a potential assailant. So in a limited space it would be better to use the staff as a pike rather than a club. I don't know if this guy is talking out of the back of his head or not, but could be instructive.

 

http://www.effectiveselfdefence.co.uk/umbrella.html

[Simon Tan]

My sifu shows pics of knife wounds to shootas to remind us how incredibly unpleasant bladed weapons are even in semi skilled hands. Advance with a blade or hidden hands and you deserve to be turned into a colander.

[thekirk]

Miyamoto Musashi had a famous duel on a sandbar, one where he was so sure of himself that he didn't even take a sword. Supposedly, he cut a bokken out of an oar, and then used that to kill his opponent. That's an atypical case, but an indicative one.

 

I'd say there are way too many variables to really say one way or another. Skill levels being equal, both parties aware of things, and there being plenty of room for maneuver? I'd wager on the staff winning. Otherwise? Knife. Maybe.

[Burncycle360]

Put a knife on a staff and you have a spear, which beats both!

[snafu_72]

This assumes that both attacker and attacked have the same situational awareness.

The knife wielder has the blade out.

The staff wielder is en garde'.

Their is ample room to wield the staff.

There are no other weapons available to either combatant.

 

1. Staff has greater reach.

2. The knife, once inside the staff's arc, has greater penetrating power.

3. The staff takes two hands to wield effectively unless it is swung like a flyswatter.

4. The knife needs only one hand to wield effectively. The other hand useful for parrying the staff's attack.

5. The staff could be broken given the right circumstances.

6. Knives rarely break unless stuck into a hard target and then twisted or bent severely.

 

Both weapons would be deadly in the hands of a trained fighter.

Both weapons could be worse than useless in the hands of a novice, turned against them and cause a fatal wound.

 

21 feet is the stated distance that a knife wielding assailant can breach a person's safety without being dealt a blow in return.

 

I'll take the flamethrower for $500 Alex!

[thekirk]

This assumes that both attacker and attacked have the same situational awareness.

The knife wielder has the blade out.

The staff wielder is en garde'.

Their is ample room to wield the staff.

There are no other weapons available to either combatant.

 

1. Staff has greater reach.

2. The knife, once inside the staff's arc, has greater penetrating power.

3. The staff takes two hands to wield effectively unless it is swung like a flyswatter.

4. The knife needs only one hand to wield effectively. The other hand useful for parrying the staff's attack.

5. The staff could be broken given the right circumstances.

6. Knives rarely break unless stuck into a hard target and then twisted or bent severely.

 

Both weapons would be deadly in the hands of a trained fighter.

Both weapons could be worse than useless in the hands of a novice, turned against them and cause a fatal wound.

 

21 feet is the stated distance that a knife wielding assailant can breach a person's safety without being dealt a blow in return.

 

I'll take the flamethrower for $500 Alex!

 

Parrying a staff blow with a body part is a recipe for a broken limb. Conditions as described, the staff wins every time. Unless he steps on a banana peel, or something...

[DougRichards]

 

21 feet is the stated distance that a knife wielding assailant can breach a person's safety without being dealt a blow in return.

 

I'll take the flamethrower for $500 Alex!

 

21 feet is the stated distance that a knife welding assailant can breech the personal safety of someone who is depending on a holstered firearm for security.

 

Other defences are available against knives, otherwise dueling would not be a sport, and trench knife would still be in mainstream use instead of the carbine for house to house fighting.

[Getz]

As a general rule of thumb, reach is the deciding when you have melee between dissimilar weapons. A staff has a lot more reach than a knife and can easily inflict fatal injuries despite the lack of a blade. With both combatants aware and with a reasonably distance between them, I'd bet on the staff nine times out of ten.

[DougRichards]

If someone comes at me with a knife, and I manage to grab or use something at hand as a staff to defend myself and cause the assailant multiple injuries I know which would win in a court of law if it came to one of us being charged with an offense.

[DougRichards]

Put a knive, a hammer and a big axe on the staff and you have a pollaxe. Argument over.

 

Would an unfolded entrenching tool with a sharpened edge meet your requirement?

 

Given that "Marius' mules" carried entrenching tools I wonder if the Roman legionaire was ever trained in its use as an emergency weapon?

[ShotMagnet]

Score touch for Doug, with the interesting question; regarding Roman legionnaires with their entrenching tools. I would guess not; by way of answer.

 

To my admittedly-limited knowledge, CQB was not something that large standing armies practiced with any sort of diligence. It would seem to me (and my aforementioned knowledge-boundary) that training large numbers of troops for CQB with entrenching equipment would fly -badly- in the face of:

 

Tactical doctrine, which (again, acknowledging my knowledge-boundary) at the time was more concerned with reinforcing by way of rote and/or muscle-memory large-scale drill, regarding things like when to go testudo, how to maneuver in formation, etc.

 

Said training should, if by dint of experience alone, might also be considered to embrace and account for expected reaction(s) to inductees, regarding what might happen if the situation became 'fluid'. Large formations of fighters operating literally shoulder-to-shoulder should be expected to fight more efficiently if they are all drilled/trained in accordance with the same operant doctrine, which itself should be expect to recognize and counter what will likely happen if drilling/training is overridden by circumstance.

 

For generalized example I offer what historically happened when a cavalry square was broken; and why the cav square was deemed to be a valid tactic to begin with.

 

Same for the individual legionnaire and his spade. You could train him to fight with it, sure.

 

But what would it cost you in terms of drill-time, when such time would include learning to fight more efficiently in formation?

 

 

 

Shot

[DougRichards]

Put a knive, a hammer and a big axe on the staff and you have a pollaxe. Argument over.

 

Would an unfolded entrenching tool with a sharpened edge meet your requirement?

 

Given that "Marius' mules" carried entrenching tools I wonder if the Roman legionaire was ever trained in its use as an emergency weapon?

 

Nah, entrenching tool is strictly melee. Poleaxe is for when you want to lop someones ears 'over there' without getting all sweaty about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG6ljIvjaWw

 

 

It does raise an interesting point that ive just considered, that the Roman Army seem to have troops trained in construction. Was that a seperate auxiliary to the main legions, and if so, did the military equipment they carried differ? Not that a wood plain would do much against the Germanic hoardes, but an adze might be quite handy.

 

My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that the specialists were initially trained as infantry. That includes the artillery. This wiki is useful in describing the immunes:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunes

[shep854]

If you swing a staff like a bat, you'll wind up gutted like a fish. Keep it close, thrust or stab like a spear, short hard chops while keeping your guard up, and you stand a good chance against a knife.

In a melee with improvised weapons, attitude makes the winner. If you want to kill someone badly enough, and are in decent shape, you can do a lot with very little.

Amazing what a 'little' adrenalin can do!

[thekirk]

Put a knive, a hammer and a big axe on the staff and you have a pollaxe. Argument over.

 

Would an unfolded entrenching tool with a sharpened edge meet your requirement?

 

Given that "Marius' mules" carried entrenching tools I wonder if the Roman legionaire was ever trained in its use as an emergency weapon?

 

Nah, entrenching tool is strictly melee. Poleaxe is for when you want to lop someones ears 'over there' without getting all sweaty about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG6ljIvjaWw

 

 

It does raise an interesting point that ive just considered, that the Roman Army seem to have troops trained in construction. Was that a seperate auxiliary to the main legions, and if so, did the military equipment they carried differ? Not that a wood plain would do much against the Germanic hoardes, but an adze might be quite handy.

 

I think it would be more accurate to describe the Roman legions as construction workers who were trained as Infantry... Nine-tenths of the public works in Europe during the Roman era were probably built by the Legions, or at least had their participation involved. Both the Republic and the Empire felt that a tired legionary was one less likely to start thinking about putting someone else into power, and thus kept the Legions busy with road-building, and other such public projects.

[Corinthian]

Put a knife on a staff and you have a spear, which beats both!

 

Put a knive, a hammer and a big axe on the staff and you have a pollaxe. Argument over.

 

Give a knife, staff, hammer, and axe to MacGyver, and he'll make a 25-megaton nuke out of it. Game over.

 

[Simon Tan]

Completely useless for a mugging.

[chino]

In the situation described by Snafu, the guy with the staff will win.

[shep854]

Stuart, you bring up an intriguing thought: What about nunchucks vs knife?

[rmgill]

Was not the use of E-tools for combat an improvised function in lieu of a better weapon for the function?

 

Given a gladius or spatha or an e-tool for fighting I think I'd take the sword over the spade by far.

[rmgill]

'Hand over your wallet, whilst I pull out this incredibly long stick ive concealed in my trousers'. Yeah, its not going to work is it?

 

Depends on the stick don't it?

 

 

[ShotMagnet]

Was not the use of E-tools for combat an improvised function in lieu of a better weapon for the function?

 

I'd say yes, though apparently WWII-era Soviets were trained to use them as weapons. I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that others might have, as well. Any digging implement should by its nature and function make for a decent CQB tool.

 

 

Shot

[Panzermann]

But the soviet army did never issue a single gladius to its soldiers.

 

 

And using picks, rakes, shovels, anything for melee was pretty comments in the trenches of the Great War.