The Coming Of Firearm Confiscation In The United States

[Mike Steele]

This place is starting to sound like the Democraticunderground.

 

I used to go on there to argue with the 9-11 truthers. I never got as much abuse from them as I have got from this grate site.

I have it on good authority that this is a "far right wing" site. Would you please make up your mind?

[DKTanker]

Nope, I stand by what I said.

 

I know quite a few LEO's and considered LE when I retired from the Army.

 

Further, while stationed in Germany for 9+ years, I knew quite a few polizei.

 

Wherever you dug that Police Academy movie bit from is just your overwhelming desire to try and twist anything I post into some Dave inspired bullshit.

You spout bullshit, I'll give you bullshit right back. You disparged every single police officer and agency across the US based upon an anecdotal sample the size of an amoeba's bowel movement. I'm calling you on this, exactly what laws, judicial decisions, and policy that govern US Police and Police agencies, are in place because of the recognized sub-standard training of Police and agency members?

 

You said that was the case, so until you can cite those laws, decisions, and policy to back up your claim I'm standing by the notion you're basing your evaluation upon a few comedic Hollywood movies.

[Mike Steele]

 

 

 

This place is starting to sound like the Democraticunderground.

 

I used to go on there to argue with the 9-11 truthers. I never got as much abuse from them as I have got from this grate site.

 

Probably because they agree with most of the same seditious crap you do.

Wow, I never imagined the day when someone like Paul G. would get that on this site. Just mind blowing.

Not too surprising considering which direction this site has gravitated over the years. Just look at who said it to him.

 

There shouldn't be any surprise that many of the moderate and dissenting voices, and not just in the FFZ, have disappeared on here.

 

No, the definition of " Far right" has changed. The "Moderates" have done so, and in the process have silenced those on the right. You and others ignore the Euros, who are the most Left wing ones one the site. A leftie has to get seriously out of line to get slapped here. Ignore the facts if you want, there it is.

[m1a1mg]

 

Nope, I stand by what I said.

 

I know quite a few LEO's and considered LE when I retired from the Army.

 

Further, while stationed in Germany for 9+ years, I knew quite a few polizei.

 

Wherever you dug that Police Academy movie bit from is just your overwhelming desire to try and twist anything I post into some Dave inspired bullshit.

You spout bullshit, I'll give you bullshit right back. You disparged every single police officer and agency across the US based upon an anecdotal sample the size of an amoeba's bowel movement. I'm calling you on this, exactly what laws, judicial decisions, and policy that govern US Police and Police agencies, are in place because of the recognized sub-standard training of Police and agency members?

 

You said that was the case, so until you can cite those laws, decisions, and policy to back up your claim I'm standing by the notion you're basing your evaluation upon a few comedic Hollywood movies.

What absolute bollocks. Which is nothing new for you, for sure. You can extrapolate the most outlandish ideas from anything I post on these boards. It bores me Dave, as do you. I will gladly put you back on ignore. You just ain't worth the keystrokes.

[Jeff]

 

 

 

 

This place is starting to sound like the Democraticunderground.

 

I used to go on there to argue with the 9-11 truthers. I never got as much abuse from them as I have got from this grate site.

 

Probably because they agree with most of the same seditious crap you do.

Wow, I never imagined the day when someone like Paul G. would get that on this site. Just mind blowing.

Not too surprising considering which direction this site has gravitated over the years. Just look at who said it to him.

 

There shouldn't be any surprise that many of the moderate and dissenting voices, and not just in the FFZ, have disappeared on here.

 

No, the definition of " Far right" has changed. The "Moderates" have done so, and in the process have silenced those on the right. You and others ignore the Euros, who are the most Left wing ones one the site. A leftie has to get seriously out of line to get slapped here. Ignore the facts if you want, there it is.

Liberals prefer their opponents supine and contrite.

[DKTanker]

What absolute bollocks. Which is nothing new for you, for sure. You can extrapolate the most outlandish ideas from anything I post on these boards. It bores me Dave, as do you. I will gladly put you back on ignore. You just ain't worth the keystrokes.

You're mad at me because you can't support the crap you spewed? Typical.

[CT96]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/04/23/memo-the-aaron-sorkin-model-of-political-discourse-doesn-t-actually-work.html

If you want to actually understand why gun control failed, let's try a simple exercise. Raise your hand if you had a strong opinion about the background check bill that was in front of Congress.

Keep your hand raised if you know how your own Senator voted on it. Otherwise put your hand down.

Keep your hand raised if you actually live in a state that might plausibly elect a Republican to congress.

Okay, now keep your hand raised if that bill was in the top one or two issues that you'll be voting on in 2014 or 2016. By which I mean, if your Senator votes the wrong way on that bill, you will vote for anyone who opposes them. Anyone--even someone with the wrong opinions on gay marriage, social security reform, transportation subsidies, the Keystone XL pipeline, carbon taxes, marginal tax rates on people who make more than $250k per annum, the deficit, and student loan repayment programs.

Now look around. Aside from those three guys in the back from Handgun Control Inc., do you know who still has their hand raised? NRA members.

[MODERATOR]

Okay gentlemen, this bullshit has gone on long enough and it stops now. If not the thread gets locked and there will be some enforced vacations among those who have been around long enough to know better.

 

You have been warned.

 

Moderator

[thekirk]

 

 

This place is starting to sound like the Democraticunderground.

 

I used to go on there to argue with the 9-11 truthers. I never got as much abuse from them as I have got from this grate site.

 

Probably because they agree with most of the same seditious crap you do.

Wow, I never imagined the day when someone like Paul G. would get that on this site. Just mind blowing.

Awww... Are you offended when a serving officer (supposedly) who has taken an oath to support and defend the basic document of this nation advocates the subornation and subversion of it, and gets called on it? Too 'effin bad, snookums. I had to listen to Paul's ilk and suffer silently for 25 years, prisoner of the UCMJ while the likes of him advocated things like doing away with free speech, the right to vote, the right for citizens to bear arms, and freedom of religion. You may think these clowns took their jobs out of patriotism, but the sad fact is that most of them do it because they want the raw power they get being officers, and would gladly take part in oppressing the rest of us in a heartbeat.

 

And, I hate to say this, but it's not just the left-leaning officers who come up with this crap--I've heard the same bullshit coming out of the mouths of some of the Bible-thumping "conservative" types, who thought the Army and Federal government ought to be used to suppress those who don't share their beliefs. It's enlightening sitting in a van full of company and field grade officers, and listening to them discuss how the right to vote ought to be limited to the "godly", whatever the hell that means. Of course, the fact that I volunteered to drive them to the church of their choice on a weekend probably makes it my own damn fault, but there you are. Oh, and by the way? Those guys were reservists from across the US, all of whom had some years on active duty. I don't think any of them even noticed I was in the van with them--I might as well have been furniture, driving the thing.

 

It's really amazing what you hear when you don't express an opinion, and let other parties think you're in agreement with them.

[rmgill]

And, I hate to say this, but it's not just the left-leaning officers who come up with this crap--I've heard the same bullshit coming out of the mouths of some of the Bible-thumping "conservative" types, who thought the Army and Federal government ought to be used to suppress those who don't share their beliefs. It's enlightening sitting in a van full of company and field grade officers, and listening to them discuss how the right to vote ought to be limited to the "godly", whatever the hell that means. Of course, the fact that I volunteered to drive them to the church of their choice on a weekend probably makes it my own damn fault, but there you are. Oh, and by the way? Those guys were reservists from across the US, all of whom had some years on active duty. I don't think any of them even noticed I was in the van with them--I might as well have been furniture, driving the thing.

 

It's really amazing what you hear when you don't express an opinion, and let other parties think you're in agreement with them.

 

I too have had the odd argument with some real far religious conservative types on one or two gun boards. Usually in response to how they think gay or pagan folk need to be flogged out of society. Generally, I try to adhere to the live and let live dogma of how to deal with other groups or individuals. When their political push moves towards screwing me and mine royally then I have some issues.

 

Generally speaking though, I spend FAR more of my time and money dealing with legal compliance with various liberal initiatives than I do with dealing with blue laws or other policy of religious bent. I have to fill out form 4473s and deal with all that tripe, I do not however have to pay a tithe or report why I'm not going to church each week.

 

And quite honestly, it seems to be the religious liberals that REALLY screw with things around here.

 

Put another way, I'm more worried about my head than my beard.

[thekirk]

 

 

And, I hate to say this, but it's not just the left-leaning officers who come up with this crap--I've heard the same bullshit coming out of the mouths of some of the Bible-thumping "conservative" types, who thought the Army and Federal government ought to be used to suppress those who don't share their beliefs. It's enlightening sitting in a van full of company and field grade officers, and listening to them discuss how the right to vote ought to be limited to the "godly", whatever the hell that means. Of course, the fact that I volunteered to drive them to the church of their choice on a weekend probably makes it my own damn fault, but there you are. Oh, and by the way? Those guys were reservists from across the US, all of whom had some years on active duty. I don't think any of them even noticed I was in the van with them--I might as well have been furniture, driving the thing.

 

It's really amazing what you hear when you don't express an opinion, and let other parties think you're in agreement with them.

I too have had the odd argument with some real far religious conservative types on one or two gun boards. Usually in response to how they think gay or pagan folk need to be flogged out of society. Generally, I try to adhere to the live and let live dogma of how to deal with other groups or individuals. When their political push moves towards screwing me and mine royally then I have some issues.

 

Generally speaking though, I spend FAR more of my time and money dealing with legal compliance with various liberal initiatives than I do with dealing with blue laws or other policy of religious bent. I have to fill out form 4473s and deal with all that tripe, I do not however have to pay a tithe or report why I'm not going to church each week.

 

And quite honestly, it seems to be the religious liberals that REALLY screw with things around here.

 

Put another way, I'm more worried about my head than my beard.

One of the things I fear we're going to find out within the next few generations is just how poor a job we've done as a nation inculcating the values and morals that are needed in our officer and NCO corps. It is truly amazing to me how little attention is paid to making sure that the people we put into these positions really understand the document they've sworn an oath to support and defend. People like Paul are just the tip of the camel's nose, easing into the tent. We've allowed our nation's military, civil, and law enforcement structure to develop a vacuum in this regard, and when the system becomes stressed too far, there's no telling what choices these people will make.

 

I'd have no problem with people like Paul saying "OK, here's the deal: I don't think the 2nd Amendment is working. It needs to be changed, so I think we ought to amend it or have another Constitutional Convention in order to fix the issues I see with it...". But, they don't--They deny the clear language and intent, advocate undermining it with laws and regulation that stand contrary to it, and lie to the rest of us saying that they aren't intentionally undermining the basic document of our nation--Which they manifestly are.

 

If one doesn't agree with the document they swore to uphold and defend, why would one swear to do so in the first place? Why would one deny the clear language and precedent surrounding it? It would be one thing to say "I will uphold this, but I think it should be changed...". Paul's ilk never do that, though: They want to remake the world in their image through chicanery and fraud, and think the rest of us should stand by and watch while they do so. Which is why I regard him as a seditious coward who is afraid to make his intent clear.

 

There's a reason these people won't take the steps required to amend the existing Constitution or write a new one, and that is that they're certain they'd fail. So, they keep nibbling away at the edges, like rats in the night.

 

When an officer of the government even considers something like this to be legitimate, we have a problem as citizens. The end state of this sort of thing is the Pauls of this nation setting themselves up as petty little tyrants, imposing their will over the rest of us. The gun issue is just the opening wedge--You can believe that they'll go after the freedom of speech and religion not too long after, because they cannot bear either scrutiny or criticism, and the idea that there might be another moral code besides satisfying their own base desires for power over others is anathema.

Edited April 25, 2013 by thekirk

[Tim the Tank Nut]

the gun issue has become so important now because of the implementation of ObamaCare. When the terminally ill are denied care that would make a difference they'd best not have access to weapons. When HHS decides who lives and who doesn't the stakes will change dramatically.

Wait for the restrictions on what crops you can grow and what is allowed for personal use.

The worm had turned and the damage is done.

gun control is about making sure no one can undo the damage that's been done.

[rmgill]

Do you think though, that sometimes left wing politicians in the US push the gun control button to get the right rallying round a core issue, whilst they go and pursue other agendas? I mean whilst this has been going on, nobody has really been discussing his economic plans, Healthcare, Afghan war or policy in the middle east.

 

If he is just throwing dust up in the air, you have to admit its working damn well.

 

 

The talk has been going on about the other stuff as well. Obama Care and the various factors of industrial regulation have been part of the discussion. Not as glitzy and headline grabbing as some things but there. The fight over the budget was a bit highprofile...

[m1a1mg]

 

 

 

This place is starting to sound like the Democraticunderground.

 

I used to go on there to argue with the 9-11 truthers. I never got as much abuse from them as I have got from this grate site.

 

Probably because they agree with most of the same seditious crap you do.

Wow, I never imagined the day when someone like Paul G. would get that on this site. Just mind blowing.

Awww... Are you offended when a serving officer (supposedly) who has taken an oath to support and defend the basic document of this nation advocates the subornation and subversion of it, and gets called on it? Too 'effin bad, snookums. I had to listen to Paul's ilk and suffer silently for 25 years, prisoner of the UCMJ while the likes of him advocated things like doing away with free speech, the right to vote, the right for citizens to bear arms, and freedom of religion. You may think these clowns took their jobs out of patriotism, but the sad fact is that most of them do it because they want the raw power they get being officers, and would gladly take part in oppressing the rest of us in a heartbeat.

 

And, I hate to say this, but it's not just the left-leaning officers who come up with this crap--I've heard the same bullshit coming out of the mouths of some of the Bible-thumping "conservative" types, who thought the Army and Federal government ought to be used to suppress those who don't share their beliefs. It's enlightening sitting in a van full of company and field grade officers, and listening to them discuss how the right to vote ought to be limited to the "godly", whatever the hell that means. Of course, the fact that I volunteered to drive them to the church of their choice on a weekend probably makes it my own damn fault, but there you are. Oh, and by the way? Those guys were reservists from across the US, all of whom had some years on active duty. I don't think any of them even noticed I was in the van with them--I might as well have been furniture, driving the thing.

 

It's really amazing what you hear when you don't express an opinion, and let other parties think you're in agreement with them.

Wow, you suffered in silence for 25 years? Bullshit dude. You sound like a jealous little person who could never be what they wanted. You sound like a retired Skywalkre. That whine, given you're constant use of the "I've been there mantra", makes all the years of your BS seem so deluded now. Were those big, mean officers mean to you.

 

Does Paul G. have some unique perspectives? Yes. Last I looked it was his right. He isn't trying to force his opinion on us. There used to be a time on TN where people could disagree strongly on an opinion, but defend the other's right to have an opinion. Since TN has gotten rid of the majority of differentiating voices, it's become a lot different place. These days were long before you showed up.

[rmgill]

[thekirk]

 

 

 

 

This place is starting to sound like the Democraticunderground.

 

I used to go on there to argue with the 9-11 truthers. I never got as much abuse from them as I have got from this grate site.

 

Probably because they agree with most of the same seditious crap you do.

Wow, I never imagined the day when someone like Paul G. would get that on this site. Just mind blowing.

Awww... Are you offended when a serving officer (supposedly) who has taken an oath to support and defend the basic document of this nation advocates the subornation and subversion of it, and gets called on it? Too 'effin bad, snookums. I had to listen to Paul's ilk and suffer silently for 25 years, prisoner of the UCMJ while the likes of him advocated things like doing away with free speech, the right to vote, the right for citizens to bear arms, and freedom of religion. You may think these clowns took their jobs out of patriotism, but the sad fact is that most of them do it because they want the raw power they get being officers, and would gladly take part in oppressing the rest of us in a heartbeat.

 

And, I hate to say this, but it's not just the left-leaning officers who come up with this crap--I've heard the same bullshit coming out of the mouths of some of the Bible-thumping "conservative" types, who thought the Army and Federal government ought to be used to suppress those who don't share their beliefs. It's enlightening sitting in a van full of company and field grade officers, and listening to them discuss how the right to vote ought to be limited to the "godly", whatever the hell that means. Of course, the fact that I volunteered to drive them to the church of their choice on a weekend probably makes it my own damn fault, but there you are. Oh, and by the way? Those guys were reservists from across the US, all of whom had some years on active duty. I don't think any of them even noticed I was in the van with them--I might as well have been furniture, driving the thing.

 

It's really amazing what you hear when you don't express an opinion, and let other parties think you're in agreement with them.

Wow, you suffered in silence for 25 years? Bullshit dude. You sound like a jealous little person who could never be what they wanted. You sound like a retired Skywalkre. That whine, given you're constant use of the "I've been there mantra", makes all the years of your BS seem so deluded now. Were those big, mean officers mean to you.

 

Does Paul G. have some unique perspectives? Yes. Last I looked it was his right. He isn't trying to force his opinion on us. There used to be a time on TN where people could disagree strongly on an opinion, but defend the other's right to have an opinion. Since TN has gotten rid of the majority of differentiating voices, it's become a lot different place. These days were long before you showed up.

Gee, let's start this again, shall we? Am I the one advocating the subversion of the Constitution, here? Because that's what is being suggested, whether or not you want to admit it. Transliterate any of Paul's ravings about the 2nd to one of the other amendments, and you'd be singing a different tune. After all, what's good for one is good for the other, isn't it? Why don't we start with freedom of speech, or religion? I mean, nobody really needs the right to be a Mormon, or a Unitarian, do they? And, then, there's all that high-volume speech represented by a printing press: Shouldn't we have common-sense controls on that, too? How about the freedom to assemble? Doesn't the Internet make that one obsolete?

 

An officer of the US military has taken an oath to support and defend the Constitution. As such, it is beholden on them to actually, y'know, follow the damn thing. There's a process for that built into it, you know, and were Paul on here ranting and raving about the need to make use of that process, I'd have no problem with it. Hell, to be quite honest, I'd even respect that. But, he isn't doing that, is he? His idea is that the Constitution is null and void, and that he and his ilk should simply ignore it, because it's obsolete or something. Fine example of keeping an oath, that.

 

Frankly, I have the opinion that the right enshrined in the Bill of Rights to have absolute freedom of religion is probably suicidal, given the realities of dealing with modern Islam. Freedom of religion only makes sense so long as the religions in question don't have a basic tenet of ignoring secular law, and actively seek overthrowing secular authority in favor of that particular religion's authorities.

 

However, unlike Paul, I'm not going to ever suggest that we ignore that amendment, and any changes I would advocate would start from making an amendment to the Constitution.

 

Until such time as that amendment happens, I'll support and defend the Constitution as it stands, even if it makes little or no sense to me to do so. That's how you keep an oath, and why I have nothing but contempt for the forsworn.

Edited April 25, 2013 by thekirk

[Jeff]

Ok everyone, let's move on before MODERATOR comes back with his big boots.

[Tim the Tank Nut]

very good plan...

quick to the AFV forum and comparative safety

[m1a1mg]

Ok everyone, let's move on before MODERATOR comes back with his big boots.

WILCO!!

[MODERATOR]

thekirk,

 

The only reason you are not on enforced vacation is because Moderator was not specific enough in his warning, but that latitude has now gone. You are quite at liberty to accuse people of whatever you like, providing you do it somewhere else because your rope is all gone.

 

While on the specifics:

 

m1a1mg and DKTanker will desist; this applies especially to DKTanker as your general attitude and behavior has been piss poor for a while now. Your rope is rapidly running out.

 

Simon Tan, enough with the one-liner shit stirring which is using up your rope too.

 

This is not up for discussion; if Moderator has to come in here again it will be to announce enforced vacations. The ball is in your court, gentlemen.

 

Moderator

[Paul G.]

 

 

 

 

 

This place is starting to sound like the Democraticunderground.

 

I used to go on there to argue with the 9-11 truthers. I never got as much abuse from them as I have got from this grate site.

 

Probably because they agree with most of the same seditious crap you do.

Wow, I never imagined the day when someone like Paul G. would get that on this site. Just mind blowing.

Awww... Are you offended when a serving officer (supposedly) who has taken an oath to support and defend the basic document of this nation advocates the subornation and subversion of it, and gets called on it? Too 'effin bad, snookums. I had to listen to Paul's ilk and suffer silently for 25 years, prisoner of the UCMJ while the likes of him advocated things like doing away with free speech, the right to vote, the right for citizens to bear arms, and freedom of religion. You may think these clowns took their jobs out of patriotism, but the sad fact is that most of them do it because they want the raw power they get being officers, and would gladly take part in oppressing the rest of us in a heartbeat.

 

And, I hate to say this, but it's not just the left-leaning officers who come up with this crap--I've heard the same bullshit coming out of the mouths of some of the Bible-thumping "conservative" types, who thought the Army and Federal government ought to be used to suppress those who don't share their beliefs. It's enlightening sitting in a van full of company and field grade officers, and listening to them discuss how the right to vote ought to be limited to the "godly", whatever the hell that means. Of course, the fact that I volunteered to drive them to the church of their choice on a weekend probably makes it my own damn fault, but there you are. Oh, and by the way? Those guys were reservists from across the US, all of whom had some years on active duty. I don't think any of them even noticed I was in the van with them--I might as well have been furniture, driving the thing.

 

It's really amazing what you hear when you don't express an opinion, and let other parties think you're in agreement with them.

Wow, you suffered in silence for 25 years? Bullshit dude. You sound like a jealous little person who could never be what they wanted. You sound like a retired Skywalkre. That whine, given you're constant use of the "I've been there mantra", makes all the years of your BS seem so deluded now. Were those big, mean officers mean to you.

 

Does Paul G. have some unique perspectives? Yes. Last I looked it was his right. He isn't trying to force his opinion on us. There used to be a time on TN where people could disagree strongly on an opinion, but defend the other's right to have an opinion. Since TN has gotten rid of the majority of differentiating voices, it's become a lot different place. These days were long before you showed up.

Gee, let's start this again, shall we? Am I the one advocating the subversion of the Constitution, here? Because that's what is being suggested, whether or not you want to admit it. Transliterate any of Paul's ravings about the 2nd to one of the other amendments, and you'd be singing a different tune. After all, what's good for one is good for the other, isn't it? Why don't we start with freedom of speech, or religion? I mean, nobody really needs the right to be a Mormon, or a Unitarian, do they? And, then, there's all that high-volume speech represented by a printing press: Shouldn't we have common-sense controls on that, too? How about the freedom to assemble? Doesn't the Internet make that one obsolete?

 

An officer of the US military has taken an oath to support and defend the Constitution. As such, it is beholden on them to actually, y'know, follow the damn thing. There's a process for that built into it, you know, and were Paul on here ranting and raving about the need to make use of that process, I'd have no problem with it. Hell, to be quite honest, I'd even respect that. But, he isn't doing that, is he? His idea is that the Constitution is null and void, and that he and his ilk should simply ignore it, because it's obsolete or something. Fine example of keeping an oath, that.

 

Frankly, I have the opinion that the right enshrined in the Bill of Rights to have absolute freedom of religion is probably suicidal, given the realities of dealing with modern Islam. Freedom of religion only makes sense so long as the religions in question don't have a basic tenet of ignoring secular law, and actively seek overthrowing secular authority in favor of that particular religion's authorities.

 

However, unlike Paul, I'm not going to ever suggest that we ignore that amendment, and any changes I would advocate would start from making an amendment to the Constitution.

 

Until such time as that amendment happens, I'll support and defend the Constitution as it stands, even if it makes little or no sense to me to do so. That's how you keep an oath, and why I have nothing but contempt for the forsworn.

In your opinion, and it carries as much weight as anyone elses.

 

After this past week the last thing on my mind is re-explaning my-self here. I thought I did so pretty clearly, but apparently not.

 

My only comment (cant resist) is regarding my "ranting and raving". Seriously...project much?

 

I will refrain from further comment on the subject due to the Mod's guidance.

[MODERATOR]

Gentlemen, this thread is generating more heat than light, so it has been decided to lock it permanently. As a reminder, Tanknet is not the place for personal attacks.