1588/89 Bad Spanish Pr?

[Mikel2]

The Spanish Armada of 1588 is one of the most well known naval operations in history. In 1589 Drake attempted to land a force in Lisbon to spark a rebellion against Spain (eery parallels with the Armada, including a fleet not much smaller, discounting the Duke of Parma´s forces, which never imbarked in 1588), attacking Corunna along the way. They were soundly defeated both in Corunna and LIsbon by inferior Spanish forces and Drake returned to Britain in disgrace.

 

Why has one operation overshadowed the other one so dramatically?

[alejandro_]

Why has one operation overshadowed the other one so dramatically?

 

The defeat of the Armada was a major victory after many years of Catholic victories over Protestants/other branches of Christianity. As such, it was widely celebrated by many countries and exploited by English propaganda.

 

Also, there is the "black legend" around Philip II. Recent work on his reign has been less critical. Apparently one of the reasons for this legend was that he did not like to be surrounded by authors who claimed how great he was (which is another way of propaganda).

Edited May 30, 2012 by alejandro_

[RETAC21]

There, and there were other Armadas after the first - it's usually forgotten that at the end of the day, the English threw the towel and asked for terms, but it was after Elizabeth's death.

[Mikel2]

Spain managed to land troops in the British isles at least three times during those years. The terms of the 1604 Treaty of London were overwhelmingly favorable to Spain... Hardly the terms given to a defeated nation.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Mikel2

[eurico_viegas]

The Spanish Armada of 1588 is one of the most well known naval operations in history. In 1589 Drake attempted to land a force in Lisbon to spark a rebellion against Spain (eery parallels with the Armada, including a fleet not much smaller, discounting the Duke of Parma´s forces, which never imbarked in 1588), attacking Corunna along the way. They were soundly defeated both in Corunna and LIsbon by inferior Spanish forces and Drake returned to Britain in disgrace.

 

Why has one operation overshadowed the other one so dramatically?

 

Damn, didn't know about that attack. Then again, not much is talked in Portugal about the 1580-1640 period, other than the official line "the Spanish took over Portugal in 1580, we got rid of them in 1640 and the Phillips were the worst Portuguese rulers ever".

[Mikel2]

The Spanish Armada of 1588 is one of the most well known naval operations in history. In 1589 Drake attempted to land a force in Lisbon to spark a rebellion against Spain (eery parallels with the Armada, including a fleet not much smaller, discounting the Duke of Parma´s forces, which never imbarked in 1588), attacking Corunna along the way. They were soundly defeated both in Corunna and LIsbon by inferior Spanish forces and Drake returned to Britain in disgrace.

 

Why has one operation overshadowed the other one so dramatically?

 

Damn, didn't know about that attack. Then again, not much is talked in Portugal about the 1580-1640 period, other than the official line "the Spanish took over Portugal in 1580, we got rid of them in 1640 and the Phillips were the worst Portuguese rulers ever".

 

Here is Wikipedia´s take:

http://en.wikipedia..../English_Armada

 

Lots more sources in Spanish if you google it. A lot more detail in the Spanish wikipedia page...

 

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invencible_Inglesa

Edited May 30, 2012 by Mikel2

[eurico_viegas]

The Spanish Armada of 1588 is one of the most well known naval operations in history. In 1589 Drake attempted to land a force in Lisbon to spark a rebellion against Spain (eery parallels with the Armada, including a fleet not much smaller, discounting the Duke of Parma´s forces, which never imbarked in 1588), attacking Corunna along the way. They were soundly defeated both in Corunna and LIsbon by inferior Spanish forces and Drake returned to Britain in disgrace.

 

Why has one operation overshadowed the other one so dramatically?

 

Damn, didn't know about that attack. Then again, not much is talked in Portugal about the 1580-1640 period, other than the official line "the Spanish took over Portugal in 1580, we got rid of them in 1640 and the Phillips were the worst Portuguese rulers ever".

 

Here is Wikipedia´s take:

http://en.wikipedia..../English_Armada

 

Lots more sources in Spanish if you google it. A lot more detail in the Spanish wikipedia page...

 

http://es.wikipedia....encible_Inglesa

 

 

Thanks mate. Went through those to the portuguese version, and turns out the counter-armada episode explained an expression commonly used here that I thought had originated with Wellington (well, then he was still known as Wellesley).

[mnm]

Damn, didn't know about that attack. Then again, not much is talked in Portugal about the 1580-1640 period, other than the official line "the Spanish took over Portugal in 1580, we got rid of them in 1640 and the Phillips were the worst Portuguese rulers ever".

 

Which is basically true if you discount the actual Portuguese ones

[toysoldier]

Look at it in terms of goals achieved, presumed goals, that is. Spain was the champion of true Christianity, sworn to erase heresy. Anything but utter crushing of schismatics is fail: status quo is fail, favorable terms is fail, and England thriving and setting foot in America is huge fail in hindsight. Also, remember there was the rather crazy idea of uniting kingdoms, and never to be disregarded, some machismo on the line.

England, on the other hand, was merely trying to remain independent and protestant. Fully achieved.

Is like Rocky´s 1st fight with Apollo. The underdog ends up looking better just by going the distance.

Edited June 1, 2012 by toysoldier

[RETAC21]

Look at it in terms of goals achieved, presumed goals, that is. Spain was the champion of true Christianity, sworn to erase heresy. Anything but utter crushing of schismatics is fail: status quo is fail, favorable terms is fail, and England thriving and setting foot in America is huge fail in hindsight. Also, remember there was the rather crazy idea of uniting kingdoms, and never to be disregarded, some machismo on the line.

England, on the other hand, was merely trying to remain independent and protestant. Fully achieved.

Is like Rocky´s 1st fight with Apollo. The underdog ends up looking better just by going the distance.

 

Er, no, Spanish aims were not to make all of Europe catholic (wouldn't explain the wars with catholic France, would it?). The aim was to stop English support for the Dutch rebels and to preserve the monopoly over trade with the American colonies, both were achieved in the end as Engalnd was being forced into a war of attrition that it could ill finance.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Spanish_War_(1585)

[alejandro_]

both were achieved in the end as Engalnd was being forced into a war of attrition that it could ill finance.

 

Also, England had to deal with the rebelions in Ireland and other places, so Spain was free to expand in America.

[Yama]

The defeat of the Armada was a major victory after many years of Catholic victories over Protestants/other branches of Christianity. As such, it was widely celebrated by many countries and exploited by English propaganda.

 

Yes, at the time Spain was dominant military power in Europe, much like Napoleonic France was. So beating them back was a big deal.

 

It's kinda like, it is well known how Finns stopped the Soviets in Winter War. Much less known is how Soviets stopped the Finns in Continuation War...

 

And, unfortunately, much of the history writing in the West is dominated by often poorly written British popular histories which tend to overemphasize English victories [this is not a dig at quality of British military history writing in general]. For example, Hundred Years War is usually covered like this: "English won overwhelming victories at Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt and, uh...lost the war decisively".

[Mikel2]

.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Mikel2

[toysoldier]

Er, no, Spanish aims were not to make all of Europe catholic (wouldn't explain the wars with catholic France, would it?). The aim was to stop English support for the Dutch rebels and to preserve the monopoly over trade with the American colonies, both were achieved in the end as Engalnd was being forced into a war of attrition that it could ill finance.

 

http://en.wikipedia....anish_War_(1585)

Look at it in terms of goals achieved, presumed goals, that is. Spain was the champion of true Christianity, sworn to erase heresy. Anything but utter crushing of schismatics is fail: status quo is fail, favorable terms is fail, and England thriving and setting foot in America is huge fail in hindsight. Also, remember there was the rather crazy idea of uniting kingdoms, and never to be disregarded, some machismo on the line.

England, on the other hand, was merely trying to remain independent and protestant. Fully achieved.

Is like Rocky´s 1st fight with Apollo. The underdog ends up looking better just by going the distance.

 

Er, no, Spanish aims were not to make all of Europe catholic (wouldn't explain the wars with catholic France, would it?). The aim was to stop English support for the Dutch rebels and to preserve the monopoly over trade with the American colonies, both were achieved in the end as Engalnd was being forced into a war of attrition that it could ill finance.

 

http://en.wikipedia....anish_War_(1585)

 

Oh, i know that part. The long and winding back and forth between Spain and England is a part of cuban history as well, because some of it was expressed in our territory and in the Caribbean.

What i was saying wasn´t in reference to the real, serious state goals, but the presumed, PR goals that were bloated at the times and for a few centuries afterward. You´ve said it yourself, people don´t look at the actual, real achievements, they judge by the "Mighty catholic Goliath fails to subdue tiny protestant David".

And France? The ally of the Great Turk? The country that´s half protestant and whose king is a double apostate? Get outta here.

[Old Tanker]

On the bright side if it weren't for Drake instead of being an Anglo-American in Phx. Az. USA I would probably be working in a cannery in The Fennes of Albion.

[eurico_viegas]

Damn, didn't know about that attack. Then again, not much is talked in Portugal about the 1580-1640 period, other than the official line "the Spanish took over Portugal in 1580, we got rid of them in 1640 and the Phillips were the worst Portuguese rulers ever".

 

Which is basically true if you discount the actual Portuguese ones

 

Well, I'm an optimist and think there is always room for improvement. I'm pretty sure it will get worse.