Female Warriors

[Panzermann]

Força Aérea Portuguesa standing at attention

[Dark_Falcon]

Is that an older photo or does that unit simply have older weapons? I ask because of the age of the Ingram Model 10 or 11 SMG the lady is carrying.

[Panzermann]

Is that an older photo or does that unit simply have older weapons? I ask because of the age of the Ingram Model 10 or 11 SMG the lady is carrying.

 

How old do you think are the FMP m/963 the soldiers in the background are holding?

 

 

It is an air force. Handguns are secondary to flying things. And Portugal's armed forces have trditionally been on a tight budget.

[Markus Becker]

 

Is that an older photo or does that unit simply have older weapons? I ask because of the age of the Ingram Model 10 or 11 SMG the lady is carrying.

 

How old do you think are the FMP m/963 the soldiers in the background are holding?

If FMP m/963 is Portuguese for G3 I'm feeling old.

[Dark_Falcon]

 

 

Is that an older photo or does that unit simply have older weapons? I ask because of the age of the Ingram Model 10 or 11 SMG the lady is carrying.

How old do you think are the FMP m/963 the soldiers in the background are holding?

If FMP m/963 is Portuguese for G3 I'm feeling old.

 

Yes, that's what it is. "Made under license by Fábrica de Braço de Prata as the FMP m/961 (G3) and FMP m/963 (G3A3)."

 

That said, an Ingram could serve as an acceptable PDW with a few affordable modifications.

[Panzermann]

 

That said, an Ingram could serve as an acceptable PDW with a few affordable modifications.

 

 

Actually it is good as is with trigger discipline.

 

The MAC series of sub-machine guns fires intentionally as fast as it does to get away from the resonance frequency that a human body shows when firing an automatic gun. The other way is to be a lot slower like the grease gun for example, When you get in the range of resonance the gun and body move more wildly around.

[Adam Peter]

Not so current events, but: First genetic proof that women were Viking warriors

 

 

New DNA evidence uncovered by researchers at Uppsala University and Stockholm University shows that there were in fact female Viking warriors. The remains of an iconic Swedish Viking Age grave now reveal that war was not an activity exclusive to males – women could be found in the higher ranks at the battlefield.

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.

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The morphology of some skeletal traits have long suggested that she was a woman, but since this grave has been the type specimen for a Viking warrior for over a century, it has always been assumed to have belonged to a male Viking. Now, geneticists, archaeogeneticists and archaeologists have worked together and solved the mystery. DNA retrieved from the skeleton demonstrates that the individual carried two X chromosomes and no Y chromosome.

 

[Panzermann]

Not so current events, but: First genetic proof that women were Viking warriors

 

 

New DNA evidence uncovered by researchers at Uppsala University and Stockholm University shows that there were in fact female Viking warriors. The remains of an iconic Swedish Viking Age grave now reveal that war was not an activity exclusive to males – women could be found in the higher ranks at the battlefield.

.

.

.

The morphology of some skeletal traits have long suggested that she was a woman, but since this grave has been the type specimen for a Viking warrior for over a century, it has always been assumed to have belonged to a male Viking. Now, geneticists, archaeogeneticists and archaeologists have worked together and solved the mystery. DNA retrieved from the skeleton demonstrates that the individual carried two X chromosomes and no Y chromosome.

 

 

 

huh? Is the skeleton incomplete?

If the pelvic bone is complete it is very easy to tell if it is man or woman.

[Adam Peter]

Not so easy in every case, hard work, suffering, famine lead to distorsion in bones, especially calcification. Does not help that the successful female warriors quite probably were manly looking.

 

Here in Hungary there was a famous case when a private archeologist said to find the remnants of a national hero male poet, and only the genes showed that he found a woman's skeleton.

 

What I have found in English is starts around the 110th page here: http://www.csuchico.edu/anth/pdf/Brenna%20Blanchard%20thesis.pdf

[mnm]

If FMP m/963 is Portuguese for G3 I'm feeling old.

Not a tight budget as the only factor, a caliber change to .223 was considered long long ago, back when you (and I) were young The other factor is that the Brasshats never got to make their minds on what to buy instead! And considering that the market gets wider and wider every year, the paralysis is complete! Other armies have gone through several generation changes, while the EP sticks to the trusty old G3. Luckily it's a fine weapon, and takes age well

 

As for the Ingram, it's the first time I see one, who knows where it came from and when.

 

---ETA---

 

Looking again at the pic, I'm certain the Sergeant is younger than her sidearm but no surprise there. She'll go back to Civvie Street and retire of old age, but the Ingram will still be there.

Edited September 9, 2017 by mnm

[Panzermann]

Not so easy in every case, hard work, suffering, famine lead to distorsion in bones, especially calcification. Does not help that the successful female warriors quite probably were manly looking.

 

Here in Hungary there was a famous case when a private archeologist said to find the remnants of a national hero male poet, and only the genes showed that he found a woman's skeleton.

 

What I have found in English is starts around the 110th page here: http://www.csuchico.edu/anth/pdf/Brenna%20Blanchard%20thesis.pdf

 

 

Yes of course the spread is wide.

 

Friend of mine has pretty much a valkyrie build at 185 cm, broader shoulders than me, blonde, blue eyes and did I mention she does renaissance fencing with bastard sword and armour? when she is gong to be unburied they will be ging to have to make genetic tests as well. her bones will look very manly with all the muscle attachment points and all that.

[bojan]

 

As for the Ingram, it's the first time I see one, who knows where it came from and when.

IIRC Portugese Airforce acquired them to be pilot's sidearms in '70s.

[Markus Becker]

https://youtu.be/pS6D_2qKpWE

 

The good looking corporal sounds American. Guns, Americans why am I surprised?

[Panzermann]

https://youtu.be/pS6D_2qKpWE

 

The good looking corporal sounds American. Guns, Americans why am I surprised?

 

That she talks murrican I blame on watching to many bad american romantic sitcoms.

 

 

AFAIK the IDF has preferred women as instructors for quite some time, because they somehow peoduce better results of teaching.

 

 

 

another one:

 

.:

she moved to california and came back to Israel to shoot guns.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Panzermann

[TonyE]

Not so easy in every case, hard work, suffering, famine lead to distorsion in bones, especially calcification. Does not help that the successful female warriors quite probably were manly looking.

 

Here in Hungary there was a famous case when a private archeologist said to find the remnants of a national hero male poet, and only the genes showed that he found a woman's skeleton.

 

What I have found in English is starts around the 110th page here: http://www.csuchico.edu/anth/pdf/Brenna%20Blanchard%20thesis.pdf

 

I`ve seen it mentioned that the skeleton was around age 30 and slender (so typically female) + without any signs of combat injuries or martial hardships of any kind.

[Markus Becker]

 

The good looking corporal sounds American. Guns, Americans why am I surprised?

 

That she talks murrican I blame on watching to many bad american romantic sitcoms.

 

 

AFAIK the IDF has preferred women as instructors for quite some time, because they somehow peoduce better results of teaching.

 

 

 

another one:

 

.:

she moved to california and came back to Israel to shoot guns.

Yes, Californian gun laws.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Markus Becker

[Dark_Falcon]

 

 

That said, an Ingram could serve as an acceptable PDW with a few affordable modifications.

 

 

Actually it is good as is with trigger discipline.

 

The MAC series of sub-machine guns fires intentionally as fast as it does to get away from the resonance frequency that a human body shows when firing an automatic gun. The other way is to be a lot slower like the grease gun for example, When you get in the range of resonance the gun and body move more wildly around.

 

 

Ian and Karl reached the same conclusion shooting Finnish SMGs:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HJMvADklEQ

[bojan]

Only problem was conclusion - Suomi was technically better, but Kp44 was realistically better in facts that really matter in the war - Finns could not afford to have enough Suomis, they could with Kp44. Same for Lanchester SMG and Sten, sure, 1st one is "better", but 2nd one was better in terms that really mattered.

Fins considered PPS-43 better than both Suomi and PPSh, hence a decision to make a Kp44 copy, but that does not mean that it was technically better. Technically, 1st gen SMGs like Suomi, Beretta or Erma EMP-35 etc were better than 2nd gen, especially things like MP-40, PPS-43 and Sten. In practice that was not so, since production costs, both for work hours and materials used were way worse for 1st gen, hence there was no way in hell anyone could afford enough of 1st gen SMGs. US could not with Thompson, despite simplifications, how could anyone else?

[shep854]

How do you say, "The best is the enemy of good enough" in Suomi?

Edited September 17, 2017 by shep854

[Panzermann]

Only problem was conclusion - Suomi was technically better, but Kp44 was realistically better in facts that really matter in the war - Finns could not afford to have enough Suomis, they could with Kp44. Same for Lanchester SMG and Sten, sure, 1st one is "better", but 2nd one was better in terms that really mattered.

Fins considered PPS-43 better than both Suomi and PPSh, hence a decision to make a Kp44 copy, but that does not mean that it was technically better. Technically, 1st gen SMGs like Suomi, Beretta or Erma EMP-35 etc were better than 2nd gen, especially things like MP-40, PPS-43 and Sten. In practice that was not so, since production costs, both for work hours and materials used were way worse for 1st gen, hence there was no way in hell anyone could afford enough of 1st gen SMGs. US could not with Thompson, despite simplifications, how could anyone else?

 

I would exclude the MP40, because it uses the exact same bolt and contained telescoped spring of the MP38, just in a new cheaper receiver made from stampings and pressed into shape. Keeping the low rate of fire. STEN, PPS-43, grease gun etc. are much simpler in design.

 

But agree on the strategic factor to be able to produce and afford the numbers required for war.

[Roman Alymov]

How do you say, "The best is the enemy of good enough" in Suomi?

I heard a story about Finn soldiers replacing original bolts of their Mosin-type rifles with Soviet ones, as Soviet were made with less accuracy (to allow cheap mass production) and as side effect of this were more tolerant to sand\ice…..

[Dark_Falcon]

Only problem was conclusion - Suomi was technically better, but Kp44 was realistically better in facts that really matter in the war - Finns could not afford to have enough Suomis, they could with Kp44. Same for Lanchester SMG and Sten, sure, 1st one is "better", but 2nd one was better in terms that really mattered.

Fins considered PPS-43 better than both Suomi and PPSh, hence a decision to make a Kp44 copy, but that does not mean that it was technically better. Technically, 1st gen SMGs like Suomi, Beretta or Erma EMP-35 etc were better than 2nd gen, especially things like MP-40, PPS-43 and Sten. In practice that was not so, since production costs, both for work hours and materials used were way worse for 1st gen, hence there was no way in hell anyone could afford enough of 1st gen SMGs. US could not with Thompson, despite simplifications, how could anyone else?

 

I think the video was more about what SMG they felt was tactically better. Ian and Karl clearly state why the 2nd Gen SMGs replaced the 1st Gen models in service, but while they understand the reasons they still don't like the result. One can understand fully why something cheaper was needed while still not liking that something cheaper.

[Dark_Falcon]

 

How do you say, "The best is the enemy of good enough" in Suomi?

I heard a story about Finn soldiers replacing original bolts of their Mosin-type rifles with Soviet ones, as Soviet were made with less accuracy (to allow cheap mass production) and as side effect of this were more tolerant to sand\ice…..

 

 

Roman, you might want to check Ian's other YouTube channel, Forgotten Weapons, as he has 2-3 videos on Finnish Mosins, in addition to a number of videos on Russian firearms.

[Panzermann]

 

 

How do you say, "The best is the enemy of good enough" in Suomi?

I heard a story about Finn soldiers replacing original bolts of their Mosin-type rifles with Soviet ones, as Soviet were made with less accuracy (to allow cheap mass production) and as side effect of this were more tolerant to sand\ice…..

 

 

Roman, you might want to check Ian's other YouTube channel, Forgotten Weapons, as he has 2-3 videos on Finnish Mosins, in addition to a number of videos on Russian firearms.

 

 

also lots of articles on his website from before he made videos primarily.

[bojan]

I would exclude the MP40, because it uses the exact same bolt and contained telescoped spring of the MP38, just in a new cheaper receiver made from stampings and pressed into shape. ...

Receiver was way more complicated to machine than a bolt, requiring some very deep drilling and complicated milling. Bolt, even one on MP-38/40 can be made on the common lathe with any reasonably trained machinist. Sure, simpler bolt would be better, but it was not deal breaking like receiver.