Elections, Elections, Elections

[Ivanhoe]

Light rail? To the Tidewater?????

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tide_Light_Rail

 

When all is said and done, it will have over half a billion sunk into it. Its proponents claim its current ridership is above the break-even point, but that arithmetic is the kind that gets bankers sent to prison. I saw a calculation made where it was shown that it would be cheaper for the taxpayers to put every individual rider in a taxicab paid for by Hampton Roads Transit.

 

One of the neat things, in the schadenfreude sense, about The Tide is that the cars have a warning bell to alert pedestrians and whatnot. So all day, all night that thing goes clang-clang-clang-clang-clang-clang-clang-clang-clang-clang down the tracks. Pity the tracks run by some very high dollar urban apartments and condos; or at least, they used to be high dollar...

 

Now Virginia Beach is debating whether to build it out from Norfolk to the Beach. Everything I've read so far indicates it won't actually make it all the way to the beach itself and all the tourist stuff on Atlantic and Pacific avenues. As usual, they build the things where they can successfully condemn the land, not where people need to go.

[Simon Tan]

Wow.....how useless. Norfolk does not need a light rail system. It's really too small to warrant something like this. I was impressed by the diesel electric buses that have been running in Lyon for decades. They run the diesel in the burbs and when they come into town, they deploy an overhead boom and connect onto the overhead grid. Pretty damned quiet and entirely emission free. Go outside the city center and its back to diesel. Now if you want to see how to do a integrated transport solution in very old and challenging urban locales, Lyon is a great example. They have tunnels that run under the old city and have massive underground car parks buried under city squares that connect up to the tunnels. Car, bus, light transit. Planned in the 60s, using old tech but works very well.

[Ken Estes]

Austerity my ass.

This link (in Greek) says that the government announced the yearly plan for 140.000 farmers to be given free or nearly freee holidays ! This includes 8 days in a hotel with 3 day excursions for wife and children.

 

Plus for 300.000 farmers the subsidy for 20 euros for book purchases is also included.

http://www.imerisia....pubid=112854624

 

This from a country that is on the verge of complete anarchy and will not have enough money to pay salaries by mid June...

austerity my ass, they have just found the goose that lays the golden aggs and they will milk it till death.

 

You wouldn't be cherrypicking, eh? The Greeks are hardly an example of anything, incapable of correcting their own situation in midst of a general or global recession, mostly ended, but in need of recovery. Nor will Spain, even Italy, handle things on their own w/o a general EU recovery. The curious moves by the [German] EU Central Bank, first stimulating, then demanding that all toe the line remains to be explained. Merkel probably gets it, especially with the French changing colors and the UK self-crippled.

 

I am still waiting for somebody to show where austerity worked. Isn't their something in all those phoney blogs and websites that insist that FDR was a failure, ditto the New Deal, Social Security, Keynes and so forth? The 1920-22 bit was not even a blip on the screen of history, too brief to be explained, not that anybody has been interested for almost a century, when then grasped by an increasingly desperate RW.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Ken Estes

[Ken Estes]

Yes it ought to be a given and was almost abandoned in the US. We are better off today in the US for having thwarted most austerity efforts. They are most seen in the states, particularly those with GOP govt, and the tide of laid off teachers, police, fire and civil service has added much to unemployment and lowered economic activity even further.

 

Still waiting for that Confidence to show up from this clever austerity program .....

[Mikel2]

I am still waiting for somebody to show where austerity worked. Isn't their something in all those phoney blogs and websites that insist that FDR was a failure, ditto the New Deal, Social Security, Keynes and so forth? The 1920-22 bit was not even a blip on the screen of history, too brief to be explained, not that anybody has been interested for almost a century, when then grasped by an increasingly desperate RW.

 

 

The 1920-21 depression is harldly a blip in history. GDP fell by 24% (!!!!) in a one year period. Comparable to the 1929-1933 period and VASTLY worse than our current malaise. Harding/Coolidge cut taxes and spending dramatically and a few years later unemployment was 1.8%.

 

I think the reason this has become a "blip in history" is that it doesn't fit the narrative and the most spectacular recovery from a depression in recent US history has been dropped from the history books completely. I don't expect Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman to laud Harding or Coolidge, with their "austerity".

[Soren Ras]

What is this austerity in Europe I keep hearing about? What reductions in government expenditures have actually been implemented (i.e. passed and carried out, so we can see their effects)?

 

A lot of projected increases have been nixed, but to think that is the same requires suspension of disbelief bigger than the Marvel Universe.

 

--

Soren

[Mike Steele]

What is this austerity in Europe I keep hearing about? What reductions in government expenditures have actually been implemented (i.e. passed and carried out, so we can see their effects)?

 

A lot of projected increases have been nixed, but to think that is the same requires suspension of disbelief bigger than the Marvel Universe.

 

--

Soren

 

No suspension necessary Soren. Just apply Liberal amounts of Handwaveum and see, its all fixed.

[Ivanhoe]

What is this austerity in Europe I keep hearing about? What reductions in government expenditures have actually been implemented (i.e. passed and carried out, so we can see their effects)?

 

A lot of projected increases have been nixed, but to think that is the same requires suspension of disbelief bigger than the Marvel Universe.

 

As American journos say, the narrative is right even if the facts are wrong.

[Max H]

Light rail, mon freres, light rail. According to the local paper, light rail will stop global warming, raise test scores, bring peace and harmony, and lower unemployment to zero.

 

(not too late, right?)

[DKTanker]

If government austerity is wrong, and government spending money it doesn't have and has no honest plan to have is righteous, where are the calls to reduce the retirement age to (let's be arbitrary, shall we?) 40 years of age and enact laws that state retirement income shall be no less than the average of the last three years of income below the age of 40. This will have two fold results. Unemployment will be reduced to near zero and the amount of money the govenrment spends will increase dramatically thus adding instantaneous growth to the GDP. Don't bother arguing with me, to do so means you're a heartless low intellect RW extremist who is likely racist as well.

 

While we're at it, laws prohibiting the lay off and firing of workers for reasons of business efficiency (read austerity) must also be immediately enacted. It isn't fair to only think of government workers during times of economic hardship. The gal on the assembly line building widgets needs her job and income every bit as much as the GM employed UAW worker, and all direct government employees. Obviously it would make more sense and be more efficient if all people were directly employed by one level or another of government, then all could enjoy the prosperity of having a government salary. However that will probably have to wait until society evolves to the point there aren't so many bitter clingers. Again, don't argue against my points lest I tag you as a heartless RW capitalist who is probably racist as well.

Edited May 9, 2012 by DKTanker

[Mike Steele]

If government austerity is wrong, and government spending money it doesn't have and has no honest plan to have is righteous, where are the calls to reduce the retirement age to (let's be arbitrary, shall we?) 40 years of age and enact laws that state retirement income shall be no less than the average of the last three years of income below the age of 40. This will have two fold results. Unemployment will be reduced to near zero and the amount of money the govenrment spends will increase dramatically thus adding instantaneous growth to the GDP. Don't bother arguing with me, to do so means you're a heartless low intellect RW extremist who is likely racist as well.

 

While we're at it, laws prohibiting the lay off and firing of workers for reasons of business efficiency (read austerity) must also be immediately enacted. It isn't fair to only think of government workers during times of economic hardship. They gal on the assembly line building widgets needs her job and income every bit as much as the GM employed UAW worker, and all direct government employees. Obviously it would make more sense and be more efficient if all people were directly employed by one level or another of government, then all could enjoy the prosperity of having a government salary. However that will probably have to wait until society evolves to the point there are so many bitter clingers. Again, don't argue against my points lest I tag you as a heartless RW capitalist who is probably racist as well.

 

Say it brother! Testify!

[Simon Tan]

Simple narratives are best. Bankers bad. People good. Anyone who was cashing in on the bubble and craze was as culpable as the evil SOBs with their predatory loans. If you were busy flipping...you're just as bad. If you believe that you can get 18% returns on investment, you're guilty. If you went into a Ponzi scheme and made money, you're part of the problem. It is of course not a good idea to blame the electorate for their own woes.

[Mobius]

Senator Dick Lugar's dream now can come true. He can live full time in Washington DC without having to trouble himself by going back to Indiana from time to time to stand for election. The Tea Party has launched it's Spring Offensive.

 

In other good news a Federal Inmate beat Obama in the Democratic primary in 8 W. Virginia counties.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Mobius

[DKTanker]

The problem with THAT simple narative is that avoids the issue that those of use who have never been in debt in our lives suddenly got saddled with £14000 worth of debt. Or so a British minister would have you believe, since that is the debt level for every man woman and child in Britain.

 

Which rather begs the issue why is it MY debt, and I have to pay VAT on the bad investments a banker made in another country? If I was bailing out the mistakes of any other industry in the UK, the Government wouldnt stand for it. Because its the mistakes of the banking industry I have to suck it up.

You've already stated government spending is good. Why don't you petition your government to spend some money on debt forgiveness? Perhaps you can talk them into making the law one of perpetual debt forgiveness.

[DKTanker]

No Ive stated Government spending is necessary in some circumstances. Or are you asking me to believe the Marshall plan was a leftist plot to bankrupt the American taxpayer to no end? US funding for Western Europe to purchase military equipment in the late 40s, was that a waste too?

 

I repeat, its not by debt. You can jump through swings and roundbouts, but the British taxpayer is being held accountable for a debt he does not owe. Why am I being screwed for someones elses ineptitude?

Okay then, make this a necessary government spending issue. I don't really see the problem, if spending money for the sake of spending money is good (good, necessary, let's stop quibbling, shall we?), why do you care how the money is spent?

[Mike Steele]

Senator Dick Lugar's dream now can come true. He can live full time in Washington DC without having to trouble himself by going back to Indiana from time to time to stand for election. The Tea Party has launched it's Spring Offensive.

 

In other good news a Federal Inmate beat Obama in the Democratic primary in 8 W. Virginia counties.

 

http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=25661&view=findpost&p=936271

[Mike Steele]

The problem with THAT simple narative is that avoids the issue that those of use who have never been in debt in our lives suddenly got saddled with £14000 worth of debt. Or so a British minister would have you believe, since that is the debt level for every man woman and child in Britain.

 

Which rather begs the issue why is it MY debt, and I have to pay VAT on the bad investments a banker made in another country? If I was bailing out the mistakes of any other industry in the UK, the Government wouldnt stand for it. Because its the mistakes of the banking industry I have to suck it up.

You've already stated government spending is good. Why don't you petition your government to spend some money on debt forgiveness? Perhaps you can talk them into making the law one of perpetual debt forgiveness.

 

No Ive stated Government spending is necessary in some circumstances. Or are you asking me to believe the Marshall plan was a leftist plot to bankrupt the American taxpayer to no end? US funding for Western Europe to purchase military equipment in the late 40s, was that a waste too?

 

I repeat, its not by debt. You can jump through swings and roundbouts, but the British taxpayer is being held accountable for a debt he does not owe. Why am I being screwed for someones elses ineptitude?

 

Because your available

[Ken Estes]

Wow.....how useless. Norfolk does not need a light rail system. It's really too small to warrant something like this. I was impressed by the diesel electric buses that have been running in Lyon for decades. They run the diesel in the burbs and when they come into town, they deploy an overhead boom and connect onto the overhead grid. Pretty damned quiet and entirely emission free. Go outside the city center and its back to diesel. Now if you want to see how to do a integrated transport solution in very old and challenging urban locales, Lyon is a great example. They have tunnels that run under the old city and have massive underground car parks buried under city squares that connect up to the tunnels. Car, bus, light transit. Planned in the 60s, using old tech but works very well.

 

GMAFB! An expert on Norfolk??

[DKTanker]

I see, so a Government spends my tax money on whatever the hell its wants and I shouldnt have an opinion on it? So what are those election thingies that come up every so often? There are plenty of things the Government spends money on I approve of. Education, Defence, law and order. These are all positives. There are other things spending money on I would put in a negative column. The Civil list, fraudulent expense claims by MPs, overseas aid to countries you know are going to spend it on armaments, and funding banker bailouts who as far as I can tell, go and spell large chunks on it on bonuses.

You are aware, are you not, that it isn't the spending, of which you approve, that is bankrupting yours, and mine, and the various other countries around the world, it is the civil list. Not even buying and selling arms to other countries is putting you in a hurt. It is indeed the civil spending. Now that thing about bailing out banks...mind you, I never approved of it as a point of principal however, I'm not so intellectually vacant that I don't also understand that the economy we so enjoyed and depended on, prior to the crash of 2008, was in no small part financed by the financial mess wrought by those banks. In other words, we all benefited before the crash, so yes, it is also your debt.

 

After all, even your last Republican administration bent over backwards to help its steel industry.

You do understand that Bush was pilloried for those steel tariffs which were rescinded rather rapidly. So no, that is one thing Bush did not bend over backward for..on the contrary, he got bent over by his own party and people like me.

 

I normally agree with ALL your free trade arguments as it happens, because in any ordinary economic environment they are the right ones.. But it just so happens that if my country doesnt get out of this economic mess very quickly and start getting people back into work even quickly, its going to significantly increase arguments for an independent Scotland. And for all the problems your country faces its not facing its potential break up. Mine is. Thats why I advocate trying any damn thing that works to get out of this mess, and I frankly at this moment I dont care if its left right or bloody maoist if it works. Its called pragmatism.

Is it pragmatic to forestall the inevitable? I digress. Here's the problem with the idea of spending your children's money with the idea of making your life more bearable, once you start doing it you have to keep doing it. No government can spend money, to drive the economy, hoping that the decisions it makes with regards to spending are both correct and timely. By the time a government decides to spend money on "X", the world has moved on to "Y".

[Simon Tan]

No...a degree in Urban Planning.

[Anixtu]

...in a negative column. The Civil list...

 

The Civil List has been replaced as of last month. £8,000,000 is peanuts. Care to cost an alternative head of state?

 

You are aware, are you not, that it isn't the spending, of which you approve, that is bankrupting yours, and mine, and the various other countries around the world, it is the civil list.

 

The Civil List is not what you think it is: http://www.royal.gov.uk/TheRoyalHousehold/Royalfinances/Sourcesoffunding/TheCivilList.aspx Stuart may be a republican, small 'r'.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Anixtu

[Jeff]

When all is said and done, it will have over half a billion sunk into it.

We're dumping half a billion on a "busway". Basically, we're building a highway and only letting buses use it...WTF?

 

We also raised taxes $1.5B and *gasp!* we somehow still have an exploding deficit do to lower than expected revenue! You can ignore the Laffer Curve but it won't ignore you.

[Ivanhoe]

Senator Lugar's gone. Amazing factoid; he did not have an Indiana residence! He stayed in a hotel when he visited the state.

 

Man, if that isn't proof we need term limits on the Senate and House, I don't know what is.

 

He's also shown poor manners concerning his defeat. When you blame voters rather than your performance, its time to go. Good riddance.

[Ken Estes]

So Norfolk is 'too small' but an urban planner would have to look beyond meaningless city limits and consider the population distr and unique problems of the region.

 

E

W

[Ken Estes]

The issue of govt spending per se remains a smoke screen. The ideological split [chasm in USA] is over remaining in the 19th C where business cycles were left to their own set and drift, vs. recognizing the mid-20thC. notion that govt can and should act to alleviate the damaging impacts and human suffering imposed by these cycles and other matters.

 

It's all too easy to take the naive stance that somehow the govt should do finances as if it were a family, so we can ignore the current complexities of modern life. Because of these same complexities, we also need to quit thinking that one man/messiah can come in 'with new ideas/outsider views' and fixit with some kind of 'common sense', as if sense were so common.

 

But, then, what is human suffering to a political party willing to flush the lower 25% and pretty much dupe another 50%. 'I got mine, screw 'em if they can't get theirs....'