The Insane Rationalizations, Bigotry And Out Right Hypocrisy Of The Left

[DKTanker]

8 hours ago, R011 said:

I read it already.  So what?  Now give me numbers, sources, and motives for these killings you assert.

And as I've been saying, has Ukraine imnvaded anyone lately?  When was the last time if ever?  NBCW programs?  Unstable  dictator dear leader-for-life and sons in charge?

So  what?  It doesn't change the fact that Ukraine is a corrupt state and has been one for years and years.  Let me get this straight though, you deny those killings took place, but if they did, they were justified?

[bojan]

You don't get it, extrajudicial killings are all fine if his side is doing them.

One good thing that came from all this mess is that some people finally showed their true faces and boy, they are some ugly mofos.

[DB]

This is just a rehash of the same argument about Ukraine's status with respect to freedom that was made whilst this was still a short, victorious war in the making.

Ukraine's record is far from stellar, with claims that it was the worst in Europe at about this time last year, and the usual metric nearly supported this, with some aspects being worse in, IIRC, Hungary and maybe even Greece.

The weakness in the metrics proposed at that time was, in my opinion, that they do not compare like with like. For example, press freedom in Western Europe which is at peace compared to press freedom in Ukraine which includes Donbass and Luhansk, both of which were making Northern Ireland at its worst look like a holiday camp.

If we acknowledge that internal armed conflict inevitably erodes "freedom" in the states involved, and yet we fail to consider that when measuring the "freedom" of a state at war by comparing it unfavourably to its prior behaviour under an authoritarian regime, or to states that are not at war, the wartime status may mask any improvements due to the change of government. Journalists in the wrong place at the wrong time get murdered in wars regardless of the formal political alignment of the warring parties, whether by accident or by awful people acting for one or the other side.

On the gripping hand, though - conflicts can be used as an excuse to hide abuses, so it pays to continue to watch closely.

[R011]

5 hours ago, DKTanker said:

So  what?  It doesn't change the fact that Ukraine is a corrupt state and has been one for years and years.  Let me get this straight though, you deny those killings took place, but if they did, they were justified?

I have unsupported claims of political murders.  I want proof they're happening and that the culprits are the Ukrainian government rather than criminals or foreign agents. 

I'm also wondering what Ukraine has done to provoke invasion or how they're comparable to Saddam's Iraq.

[R011]

4 hours ago, bojan said:

You don't get it, extrajudicial killings are all fine if his side is doing them.

One good thing that came from all this mess is that some people finally showed their true faces and boy, they are some ugly mofos.

So having made claims, you refuse to substantiate them (save for the existence of an extremist website).

[bojan]

17 minutes ago, R011 said:

...I'm also wondering what Ukraine has done to provoke invasion or how they're comparable to Saddam's Iraq.

Same shit Yugoslavia did on Kosovo played rough with separatists killing some extrajuditially. Yugoslav was at least not using air force to bomb downtown Pristina, unlike UAF in 2014.

[R011]

12 minutes ago, bojan said:

Same shit Yugoslavia did on Kosovo played rough with separatists killing some extrajuditially. Yugoslav was at least not using air force to bomb downtown Pristina, unlike UAF in 2014.

So Ukraine had attacked its fellow former Soviet republics complete with genocidal ethnic cleansing and after unapologetically displaying this behaviour seemed to be doing the same in Donbas and Crimea?  Somehow I missed that.

[bojan]

There was no "genocidal ethnic cleansing" on Kosovo before 24.3.1999.

[R011]

10 minutes ago, bojan said:

There was no "genocidal ethnic cleansing" on Kosovo before 24.3.1999.

No, Serbia had been doing it routinely in Croatia, Serbia, and Bosnia throughout the previous decade.  Why wouldn't the West believe it was acting true to form in Kosovo?  Has Ukraine done anything similar since independence?

[bojan]

4 minutes ago, R011 said:

No, Serbia had been doing it routinely in Croatia, Serbia, and Bosnia throughout the previous decade...

So did Croats (forgot about Medak Pocket and Canadian forces little episode with Croats already?) and Muslims from a day one of their illegal* secession. Civil wars are nasty.

*Macedonia separated legally and there was no war there, until Albanians started stirring shit.

Difference is that I have never made excuses nor have negated real shit that "my" side did, while you have made and continue to make every excuse for" your". I have also protested (including getting beaten by police) what I have perceived as wrong with my country. You?

Edited March 22, 2023 by bojan

[R011]

22 minutes ago, bojan said:

So did Croats (forgot about Medak Pocket and Canadian forces little episode with Croats already?) and Muslims from a day one of their illegal* secession. Civil wars are nasty.

*Macedonia separated legally and there was no war there, until Albanians started stirring shit.

Difference is that I have never made excuses nor have negated real shit that "my" side did, while you have made and continue to make every excuse for" your". I have also protested (including getting beaten by police) what I have perceived as wrong with my country. You?

Croatian and Bosniak crimes, of which there were plenty, weren't relevant to the discussion.  When liars and murderers claim they aren't lying and murdering this time, it should be no surprise they aren't believed.

But that's a side topic to the false equivalence between Ukraine and Iraq and Serbia.

[bojan]

4 minutes ago, R011 said:

Croatian and Bosniak crimes, of which there were plenty, weren't relevant to the discussion. 

Then why mention Serbian crimes in Bosnia and Croatia while discussing Kosovo?

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 When liars and murderers claim they aren't lying and murdering this time, it should be no surprise they aren't believed.

But you have believed Muslims, Croats and Albanians "they are fully innocent" and threated them so despite a fact they did plenty of horrible shit?

Quote

But that's a side topic to the false equivalence between Ukraine and Iraq and Serbia.

Ah yes, your side is "morally right", as usually and everything wrong you did is "different". You would have fitted into average Milosevic/Putin supporter crown nicely, it was only by a chance of being born in Canada that you are against those.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by bojan

[R011]

 

1 hour ago, bojan said:

Then why mention Serbian crimes in Bosnia and Croatia while discussing Kosovo?

Which part of "liars and murderers" did you not undersatand?

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But you have believed Muslims, Croats and Albanians "they are fully innocent" and threated them so despite a fact they did plenty of horrible shit?

I never claimed anything about Croats and Muslims save that they comitted crimes as well.  As for Kosovo, why not believe them when genocidal liars and murderers claim to be innocent?  I will and have before made the admission that the West was mistaken in Kosovo.  For consistency sake, though, I think the Werst was right to intervene in former Yugoslavia's genocides and wrong not to in Rwanda.

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Ah yes, your side is "morally right", as usually and everything wrong you did is "different".

So please, tell us how Ukraine is the same as Iraq and Serbia.  Tell us about the genocide, the invasions of other countries, the WMD programs, the inane and unpredictable dictator.

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You would have fitted into average Milosevic/Putin supporter crown nicely, it was only by a chance of being born in Canada that you are against those.

I'm not the one implying Ukraine deserved to be the victim of war because the West isn't perfect.

[bojan]

42 minutes ago, R011 said:

I'm not the one implying Ukraine deserved to be the victim of war because the West isn't perfect.

See, another lie, despite the fact that I have noted numerous times that I neither support separatism in Ukraine nor Serbia, nor Russian invasion of it Ukraine nor NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. But I do want hold Ukraine (and Serbia) to the same "high democratic standards" that west is always talking about, but very selectively applying when it is not in their interest. And I actually did actual stuff to do so, at least in case of Serbia. You?

As I have told you, you would fit nicely in the every dictator's crowd, because for you, as soon as as someone strays even a bit from the party line he must be a traitor to the cause.

Edited March 22, 2023 by bojan

[R011]

57 minutes ago, bojan said:

See, another lie, despite the fact that I have noted numerous times that I neither support separatism in Ukraine nor Serbia, nor Russian invasion of it Ukraine nor NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. But I do want hold Ukraine (and Serbia) to the same "high democratic standards" that west is always talking about, but very selectively applying when it is not in their interest. And I actually did actual stuff to do so, at least in case of Serbia. You?

As I have told you, you would fit nicely in the every dictator's crowd, because for you, as soon as as someone strays even a bit from the party line he must be a traitor to the cause.

"another lie" and then you repeat the insinuation that sUkraine is somehow not worthy of Western support else why continue the false equivlance?  IAnd yes, Ukrainian democracy is a work in progress and there are serious issues, but they do have contested elections which included pro Russian parties before the invasion by Russia.  Hard for them to have been doing that if they wer all being murdered by the Ukrainian government.

[bojan]

17 minutes ago, R011 said:

"another lie" and then you repeat the insinuation that sUkraine is somehow not worthy of Western support else why continue the false equivlance? 

And another lie.

I have zero issue with any country supporting whoever they want, especially if you are once, for a change actually supporting country defending it's freedom from a foreign aggression. But I do have issue with your "our shit does not smell" and "everyone not agreeing with me is a traitor" approach.

Edited March 22, 2023 by bojan

[R011]

3 minutes ago, bojan said:

And another lie.

So you keep telling us that Ukraine is undemocratic and that the situation is the same as the Balkans twenty years ago because you support Ukraine.  Sounds a bit confused to me then.

[bojan]

1. Ukraine is undemocratic and highly corrupt.

2. Situation on terrain is very much close to one in Balkans, shelling w/o giving a flying fuck for civilians by all sides involved, regular atrocities etc. and if any side "wins" there will be such ethnic cleansing that Bosnia would look like children's playground.

3. Solution ATM is IMO to help Ukraine with any weapons they need short of nukes, w/o "but that is escalation" bullshit excuses or  sending a useless things like dozen tanks or so, but with a stern note that help will be cut if they don't want to reign at least worst parts - Azov, Kraken and other nazi cunts. Hence they can either accept to behave like at least semi-normal human beings (none will ever behave completely normal in the war, but there is a difference between isolated incidents like happened in Iraq and what is going on in Ukraine) or be left alone to fight their fight if they are not behaving better than Russians. Their choice.

0% chance of that happening ofc.

Edited March 22, 2023 by bojan

[Stargrunt6]

I really think that a lot of those tanks like Leo2 and Abrams are going to be sold off.  Since it takes so long to train the crews plus the support staff, they would probably rather trade them for manpads and atgms. 

[DKTanker]

1 hour ago, Stargrunt6 said:

I really think that a lot of those tanks like Leo2 and Abrams are going to be sold off.  Since it takes so long to train the crews plus the support staff, they would probably rather trade them for manpads and atgms. 

The language barrier will be the biggest hurdle.  That aside, three to six months of intensive gunnery and tactical training would do the trick if the crews already have experience with tanks.  When we transitioned from M60A3s to M1A1s we had an intensive three month training cycle and it was still a full year before our battalion again had a combat readiness grade of A.  Of course that was a peacetime year when training wasn't nearly as intensive as the Ukrainians will likely face.

[futon]

When sub groups are very polar, it becames less likely to keep the operation of governance as well as companies even free from corruption since each sub group will favor others of the same sub group. Corruption may exists in different forms. One is purely for self individual. But other forms surely act in favor of not individual but of common sub-group. Japan sub groups are not extremely polar. US sub groups have increasingly become quite polar, thus greater strain on trust-integraty of its institutions. But US is wealthy as in Japan. Wealth probably adds cushion.. money may get wasted but corruption can all soaked up in the medium of money before leaking out into political action of sorts. Iraq with sharp lines of tribal, shia, sunni, kurd, with war torn place and low gdp... corruption is unrvitable. So Ukraine's status has fertile ground for corruption due to sharp divide on Ukrainian/Russian identity and poor gdp. Even greater extreme was the Korean War with communists faction and non-communist faction. The middle faction grew thin and tugged one way or the other. Result is weekly massscres on each other. There is no trust to offer the other group in the franchise, some that some Americans were starting to believe for own country in past several years. 

So yeah, sure Ukraine has been a corrupt place, but social situation makes it tough to be clean from it.. to some degree.. the current war will have similar result as the Korean War... elimination of far end polar opposite that can't be trusted to partake in the franchise. Recommended way.. no, just idendifying the dynamic. Idealism that it could be better? Yeah, well maybe, but still, just humans after all. 

[futon]

4 hours ago, Stargrunt6 said:

I really think that a lot of those tanks like Leo2 and Abrams are going to be sold off.  Since it takes so long to train the crews plus the support staff, they would probably rather trade them for manpads and atgms. 

The Ukranians seem to still want to recapture lost ground. For that, they need tanks. And they need them not in piecemeal, but by the bulks of 50s so that proper offensive capable battalions/divisions can be made.

Without it, then gaining back lost ground would have to be more of by means of compelling a Russian retreat by slow attrition and somehow capturing key strategic spots around an area. Thus a more tedious and slow process. Lots of tanks create possibility, still dependent on skillful incorporated use, to just smash into a spot with high firepower and take it.

Without more tank donations, the support almost seems to signal that it's the western powers hinting that its time to make compromise with Russia on some land. That may be precisely what Poland wants to prevent, hence its massive tank procurement. Doing so will free up its Leopard 2s for greater donation quantity. This all has to be done with some economic respect though. 

[JWB]

[Murph]

They are telling you what they are doing, and you ignore it since "it can't happen here".   

 

 

[Murph]

Left wing insurrectionists invade the Tennessee's capital in an insurection aimed at the overthrow of the government to institute gun control.  19 arrested.  Feds shocked, since only Trump supporters can be inssurectionists.  

 

A REAL insurrection, not a FBI/DOJ/CIA made up one: