Indian Armed Forces Today?

[Vuk]

What is the boards opinion on the Indian forces today? Should a new Sino-indian conflict flare up would india be able to perform better than last time?

[Murph]

Unknown. How big are they, and more likely could they take on Pakistan?

[Guest nawang]

They are a good bunch overall though lacking the latest equipments that the western armies takes for granted. The army is million+ strong and battle hardened .Airforce is a mixed bag .They have good pilots but are still flying old Mig 21s in number.Navy just got a nuclear submarine from Russia and have indegenous one in pipeline.

[Cookie Monster]

With the exception of USA and nuclear subs, India still has more modern weapons than Brits, France, Germany have

[X-Files]

India has replaced China as the world’s largest arms buyer, accounting for 10 percent of all arms purchases during the past five years, a Swedish research group said.

India purchased some $12.7 billion in arms, 80 percent of that from Russia, during 2007-2011, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI). China’s arms purchases during that time were $6.3 billion, 78 percent of which came from Russia.

 

http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/why-has-india-become-the-worlds-top-arms-buyer/

[crazyinsane105]

India has replaced China as the world’s largest arms buyer, accounting for 10 percent of all arms purchases during the past five years, a Swedish research group said.

India purchased some $12.7 billion in arms, 80 percent of that from Russia, during 2007-2011, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI). China’s arms purchases during that time were $6.3 billion, 78 percent of which came from Russia.

 

http://india.blogs.n...top-arms-buyer/

 

Doesn't mean the Chinese have stopped with arms procurement. They just don't need nearly as much foreign weaponry because their indigenous weapons production has picked up speed in the past few years.

[Vuk]

It seems from what I read that almost all Indian domestic production is plagued by late deliveries and high cost increases so perhaps that is a reason for imports.

[Leo Niehorster]

It seems from what I read that almost all Indian domestic production is plagued by late deliveries and high cost increases so perhaps that is a reason for imports.

Same old, same old.

So why should their military-Industrial system be any different than European or US ones?

[IronsightSniper]

The Indian Armed Forces are maturing. There's nothing to suggest of a Pakistani victory in the case of a Indo-Pakistani war. A Sino-Indian war is simply absurd nowadays, but observing such a possibility, the PLA would have advantages in many areas, but more than likely, the Indians would have air supremacy, despite the similarity of their Air force's inventories.

[Vuk]

It seems from what I read that almost all Indian domestic production is plagued by late deliveries and high cost increases so perhaps that is a reason for imports.

Same old, same old.

So why should their military-Industrial system be any different than European or US ones?

 

The difference is that European and US systems eventually leads to the delivery of the systems while India seems to spend a lot of cash on domestic systems that are then cancelled and foreign designs are bought

[nitin]

Till date there has only been one ambitious project cancelled - the Trishul SAM. Pretty much every other program has been progressed, no matter what the problems, typically by not watering down the requirements, but by ordering a limited amount of MK1s and moving onto a MK2. The only other high risk program which has been redone is the Kaveri turbofan - even in that case, the original is being kept for UAVs and other less demanding applications while a new variant will be developed for future aircraft, so its not scrapped but being progressed as a JV with some tech re-use.

 

In the case of domestic programs, bar the most ambitious ones, most have delivered - India today sources the bulk of its missiles locally for instance, has pretty much localized areas such as electronic warfare and has made significant strides in systems such as radars, sonars etc. It has also made significant strides in developing and successfully developing C3I networks and systems - the IAF has everything from a logistics management/SCM system called IMMOLs to its own fully integrated command and control network called IACCS in deployment. Where India has struggled is in terms of fielding system of systems projects or rather integrated platforms - where it has sought to overcome decades of technology lag in one program. Such high risk programs are usually delayed - these include the Arjun MBT and the LCA Tejas project. Even so, they are being progressed, now in the MK1 maturing into MK2 and so forth.

 

Other ambitious projects have come good - whether it be Project Sangraha (<a href="http://frontierindia.net/sangraha-for-indian-navy">http://frontierindia.net/sangraha-for-indian-navy</a>) or similar systems for the Army and AF. The Akash SAM (ordered now by both the AF & Army), the Pinaka MBRLs (ordered by the Army and its experience is being progressed further by the new 150 km Prahar ATCMS equivalent system). The ALH (helicopter) is also doing decently with a weaponized variant ordered and a new attack derivative being developed for the high altitude fight.

 

<p>In terms of platforms - the Navy has functioned the best. Even with India's relatively inefficient public run shipyards with their trade unionism and what not, the Navy has managed pretty decent quality destroyers, frigates etc. The key difference between them and the Army and AF is that the Navy decided earlier on itself to become a builders navy and hence actively sponsored local R&D units and manufacturers to involve themselves in its projects. Take for instance, the famous case of an oil mill getting into industrial machinery and then manufacturing gear boxes for Naval ships and becoming known for its precision manufacturing capabilities.

 

Such stuff is not that common for the AF and Army which left this sort of painful heavy lifting mostly to the production agencies and did not own the projects they commissioned.

 

Overall, India has broadly succeeded in several areas but the demands are high, especially thanks to the constant threat perception and the Indian Armed forces cut no slack in terms of requirements. Even the MK1s which may miss a few requirements are ordered in limited amounts and the MK2 is expected to be contemporary to what the services get via import. This imposes a very tough set of requirements on local agencies. While the positive is that quality of local goods then goes up over time, the cons are risk and time and the occasional failure.

 

To summarize, in many missiles, electronics and software driven systems, India is broadly making its own stuff with only limited imports of select high end gear. Otherwise JVs. In airborne platforms, it has made some strides thanks broadly to the LCA program but is still using TOT and JVs for bulking up. In naval platforms - much better, mostly local platforms and imports mostly restricted to submarines and for quick induction (where the production inefficiency of the local shipyards is a dampener). In land systems, still dependent on imports of artillery and many items thanks mainly to the limited R&D capabilities of the Ordnance Factory Board - India;s state run land systems giant. Even here though, recent decisions have seen the latter steadily ramp up capabilities.

 

Over 2012-2022, India will steadily make the transition to mass manufacturing more and more of its own platforms, and joint ventures. Pure imports and license manufacturing will mostly shift to the highest end items or in select areas like propulsion (which is where the country is yet to invest significantly) or advanced sensors (eg high grade thermal imagers etc).

 

Broadly, the current achievements are mostly due to a state owned structure with limited involvement from the private side (which mostly does subsystem level work). But once the larger private firms get into the arms biz in a big way, the scale up can be quite substantial. The key issue there is the local politics prevent these guys from competing head to head with organizations like the OFB which could lose out on business to some private guys</p>

Edited March 24, 2012 by nitin

[nitin]

What is the boards opinion on the Indian forces today? Should a new Sino-indian conflict flare up would india be able to perform better than last time?

 

In answer to this question - definitely. The Indian Army of '62 was not led professionally enough and was more and more a "peacetime army" thanks to political interference and lack of proper planning by the Army brass themselves. Today, its a different kettle of fish. While the PLA has significant advantages in terms of artillery and its missile firepower (surface to surface), the Indian Army has the edge in training, fortifications (the entire area of conflict on the Indian side is heavily built up) and even local numbers, which will make it a very tough slog for the PLA.

Plus there is combat experience, thanks to the Kashmir, and other less intensive insurgencies, a vast number of Indian troops have seen combat and are combat hardened - India tends to rotate troops in and out of such deployments for this exact reason. Add the exposure to many other countries frontline training establishments etc, and on the manpower side, India will have an edge.

Basically head to head, with the Chinese side trying to redo a 1962, it will be a very hard slog for the PLA with victory by no means guaranteed.

[swerve]

Unknown. How big are they, and more likely could they take on Pakistan?

Pakistan? Easily. Superior numbers, more & better weapons of every type, as well trained.

[IronsightSniper]

Wouldn't say that. Pakistani MBTs are more than a match for Arjuns.

[Vuk]

The Arjun is ordered in relatively small numbers <300, the T-90 is as I understand it to be the main tank around 1000 planned.

[crazyinsane105]

Wouldn't say that. Pakistani MBTs are more than a match for Arjuns.

 

On top of that, the Indian military doesn't have much of an advantage when it comes to self propelled artillery pieces. The Pak military has more of those and those numbers are steadily increasing as well. As for the T-90s, they'll definitely be the dominant tank in the Indian arsenal. Whether they can blitzkrieg through Sindh and Punjab against Pakistani armor and artillery is another story, but I seriously doubt a large scale conflict will be occurring anytime soon within that region.

[Dawes]

How is the INSAS rifle working out? Last I heard, the Indian Army still wasn't entirely satisfied with it.

[crazyinsane105]

How is the INSAS rifle working out? Last I heard, the Indian Army still wasn't entirely satisfied with it.

 

Quite honestly, not too well:

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/01/25/indian-army-wants-to-ditch-the-insas/

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/08/worst-sling-design-ever/

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/05/25/the-real-firearm-in-india/

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/14/the-decline-of-the-gun-industry-in-india/

 

The INSAS, due mostly to political reasons, isn't the best of rifles out there. India would probably have been better off just getting some right of production to Russian, German, etc. rifles and building them in mass.

[istvan47]

Moreover, they are both nuclear powers, relatively poor countries and overpopolated as well.

 

With terrorism issues (especially with Pakistan) internal, and China that could display an impressive firepower at the indian's border.

 

And china is as well poor, overpopulated and nuclear. Such a pretty combination.

[Colin]

India could survive a nuclear war,Pakistan not so much, what would be left would go independent of each other I suspect, so all out war is not in Pakistan's interest. I also have to wonder how much of pakistan strenght is on paper and not in the real world. Considering the clout the Generals have, i suspect they spend a fair bit of time filling their pockets rathr than ensuring their units are combat ready. I also realize that the former is not true of all units, some who are close to the pointy end will be focused.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Colin

[methos]

India could survive a nuclear war,Pakistan not so much, what would be left would go independent of each other I suspect, so all out war is not in Pakistan's interest. I also have to wonder how much of pakistan strenght is on paper and not in the real world. Considering the clout the Generals have, i suspect they spend a fair bit of time filling their pockets rathr than ensuring their units are combat ready. I also realize that the former is not true of all units, some who are close to the pointy end will be focused.

 

"[C]ould survive a nuclear war"? By what definition?

[urbanoid]

"[C]ould survive a nuclear war"? By what definition?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZV_lIwmz5E

[crazyinsane105]

India could survive a nuclear war,Pakistan not so much, what would be left would go independent of each other I suspect, so all out war is not in Pakistan's interest. I also have to wonder how much of pakistan strenght is on paper and not in the real world. Considering the clout the Generals have, i suspect they spend a fair bit of time filling their pockets rathr than ensuring their units are combat ready. I also realize that the former is not true of all units, some who are close to the pointy end will be focused.

 

How would India survive a nuclear war? If you mean out of the billion people in that country, around half would survive, sure. But the country itself? Nope, it would vanish pretty quickly. Pakistan is also expanding its nuclear arsenal greatly, has been since the Osama raid. Estimates put the number of nukes around 150-200, more than enough to take out every single major population and military command center in India. Neither country is dumb enough to go to that point though.

[Colin]

I suspect even 3 nukes would shatter Pakistan and it's hold on most of it territory. I suspect the NWF and Baluchistan would declare themselves independent in a heartbeat. Still the reality that much of India would survive and very little of Pakistan helps Pakistan avoid any temptation to get completely stupid. It is possible that their proxy wars could stumble into a larger conflict.Problem of course is that India has to divide it's attention between Pakistan and China. In a perfect Indian world, you would have a Afghanistan friendly with Iran and cold to Pakistan forcing Pakistan to guard two frontiers against conventional forces.

[Simon Tan]

Nuke 300 milllion Indians....and there are 700 million more. Nuke 300 million Pakistanis.........