What to buy, what to buy ... CC pistol ...

[Nailcreek]

Although I've been window shopping at Gander and Cabela's, I've a few questions as I look around for a pistol suitable for CC and would welcome the board's thoughts ...

 

I'd like the following:

 

1. 9mm or 40 (380 is too small). Quality high enough not to be finicky with ammo types

2. Excellent quality and reliability. It has to go bang if, God forbid, I am forced to pull the trigger.

3. Polymer frame - full metal is too much to carry.

4. No bigger than a 4" barrel - preferably 3-ish

5. Probably in the compact category ...

 

I've been looking at the S&W M&P9c, which has been getting great reviews here. Unfortunately, I just can't get too excited about Glocks for some reason. I've also heard that Ruger makes some good pistols - I've seen the LCP9, but the grip is too small for my hands. H&K is way too expensive, I'd like to keep the price around $600 or perferably less if the value is there.

 

I've handled the M&Pc, the SIG 2022, the CZ-Rami, and a few others. I've shied away from Taurus for apparent QC concerns, and I've absolutely no familiarity with EAA, Stoeger or Bersa.

 

I know this question's been tossed around ad nauseum, but I thought I would throw this out regardless ... Thanks!

 

Thoughts/comments?

[shep854]

Step 1: Delete that list

 

Step 2: Get a good revolver. If you will do your part, a steel J-frame will do its. A Ruger SP-100, if you just have to have hot loads.

 

Just sayin...

 

As you gain experience, and your own situation clarifies, you can beggar yourself buying different guns that strike your fancy.

[rmgill]

I've been carrying my PT92AF for years. It's been good but its starting to have parts fail. The locking block failed last summer but I replaced that. Now, just last night at the range, it was slipping on double action trigger pulls. Perhaps it needs a detail cleaning, but that seems odd given I did a detail clean when I put the new locking block in. I'm going to strip it down tonight and check the transfer bar to see if it's got a nick in it's engagement area. If it does that's another part about to fail. Not bad considering it's had a large number of rounds fired through it in the past 15 years. Which means it probably needs to go back to the factory for a rebuild.

 

I've been eyeing SIGs for years. Either a 226 or a 229. I like the theory behind Glocks, their ergonomics just don't fit me at all. I suppose I should give the Gen 4's a look again, BUT I've always liked an external hammer so I'm still not into the striker fired form...

 

Best I can say is go for what you like and feel good about now. Make sure it's something you're good with and trust. Models specific to Concealed carry are a plus (de-horned, etc).

 

Go to some ranges, rent what they have, take notes for what you like and don't like. See how you are with each type and then compare with those notes in mind for your final selection.

[Josh]

I find revolvers disconcerting. But on the other hand you can't argue with the reliability.

 

If you want something inexpensive in an autoloader, there's Keltek's 9mm for like < $250. Supposed to be reliable and from what I've heard their customer service is legendary. They have a rough look to them and the triggers can be a little...meh. Kahr arms makes a PM-9 (and .40) that I've wanted to shoot for a couple years now that's supposed to be really spiffy, though much more expensive at around $700+.

[shep854]

I'll vouch for the Kel-Tecs; I have both the PF9 (the single-stack 9mm) and the P11 (double-stack 9mm). The P11 is a mature design, first offered back in the '90s. Be ready for a fairly stiff trigger.

The PF9 is the smallest, lightest pistol that can handle the 9mm, so that makes it a handful.

Put in the work to learn their quirks, and they both make good, serviceable pistols.

K-T customer service is awesome!! When I wore out the recoil springs, I called and they shipped replacements free!

Edited January 18, 2012 by shep854

[rmgill]

I find revolvers disconcerting. But on the other hand you can't argue with the reliability.

 

If you want something inexpensive in an autoloader, there's Keltek's 9mm for like < $250. Supposed to be reliable and from what I've heard their customer service is legendary.

 

I have a P11. Goes bang every time I pull the trigger. Keltec CNC is a decent company for the size but they do not finely finish their guns. However, something like 1/3 of these have issues that need serious tuning by the factory to make them run. It's caused something of a poor reputation among folks I know.

 

One's luck with them seems to be about 30% of getting a non-reliable gun, which, is an issue. I question whether it's just the gun needs some detail polishing of certain parts or the owners don't have the right feel for it. I ended up doing a fluff and buff on all of the steel friction points and worked on sanding the casting imperfections in some of the polymer. For the price $300 it is a great little 9mm but still needed some work. Mine did not want to go into battery when it was brand new when one racked the slide manually. It did however go into battery after shots. So, at least until it was broken in, Id rack the slide and tap it with the heel and it would go into battery nicely.

 

 

As things go, it's a good little gun for $300 and with 10-12 round magazines in a 9mm. I'm still intrigued by the Boberg.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TSva89jbNM&feature=related

Edited January 18, 2012 by rmgill

[Sardaukar]

How about the new SIG P224?

 

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p224-sas.aspx

[T19]

If you are new to firearms, I would go with the revolver. If your not going to go to the range and practice..go with the revolver

 

6 rounds is enough to scare and kill... you are not going to war

 

think KISS

[Tony Williams]

Try as many guns as possible on a range, then go for the smallest and lightest you feel comfortable shooting, and can get on target with quickly and consistently.

 

Analysis of a huge number of actual close-range one-on-one gunfights has revealed that the calibre of the gun is unimportant to the outcome: it's where you hit that matters.

 

Since you going to be carrying this thing, day in, day out (but will probably never use it for real) it needs to be small and light so it doesn't become a burden.

 

Ammo cost matters, because you will want to practice regularly to keep your skills sharp.

 

Edit to add: a compact laser (you can get them integrated into the grip) which projects a dot onto your target has been found to be very effective, especially in the dark. It might also deter your opponent without you even having to fire.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Tony Williams

[shep854]

Ryan, that was a fair overview of the Kel-Tecs. I did my "F&B" the fun way, by shooting! Until frequent practice became impractical, my P11 then PF9 were my carry guns. For the time being, I carry a small .38 revolver.

[Max H]

6 rounds is enough to scare and kill... you are not going to war

IIRC average number of rounds fired in a self-defence situation is <3

 

I also recommend getting to a range and trying all the pistols you can. Remember, it isn't the number of stowed rounds that's important, but the number of stowed kills (to borrow a phrase from the AFV forum )

 

EDIT: I don't mean they fire little hearts at attackers, I meant the average number of rounds fired is under 3. Just though i'd clear that up

Edited January 18, 2012 by Max H

[rmgill]

Ryan, that was a fair overview of the Kel-Tecs. I did my "F&B" the fun way, by shooting! Until frequent practice became impractical, my P11 then PF9 were my carry guns. For the time being, I carry a small .38 revolver.

 

I have a hard time having a case of the ass at KelTec like some folks do, in part because they're innovating and in part because they're a small company. They do their best to take care of their customers. I too had a minor fault which was a broken lever for the hold open on last shot function. I probably snagged it with a rag wiping it down and in the process broke it. Anyhow, I called them, told them the problem and they sent me a replacement part no questions asked.

 

One gets what one pays for. If it goes bang reliably and it costs you $300, then it's probably a good deal. The atrociously heavy trigger is ok because it IS A pocket gun. You don't want a pocket gun that has a light trigger....that is BAD even if you do have a pocket holster for it.

Edited January 18, 2012 by rmgill

[Ivanhoe]

Try as many guns as possible on a range, then go for the smallest and lightest you feel comfortable shooting, and can get on target with quickly and consistently.

 

I'll repeat my mantra that one should start with a full sized handgun for practice and nightstand use, and then a compact or sub-compact with the same manual-of-arms as the big gun. I used to be a proponent of having the big gun and little gun take the same mags or speedloaders, but these days that doesn't worry me. Even in an LA Riots scenario, if you're packing both handguns, You probably won't perform more than one "New York Reload".

 

Ammo cost matters, because you will want to practice regularly to keep your skills sharp.

 

And availability! Recall the stunning lack of .380 Auto when several US states passed CCW laws. What little .380 fodder that could be found was priced as if the bullets and cases were hand-machined out of platinum.

 

In the US, you simply can't go wrong with .38Spl/.357, 9x19, and .45 ACP.

[rmgill]

And availability! Recall the stunning lack of .380 Auto when several US states passed CCW laws. What little .380 fodder that could be found was priced as if the bullets and cases were hand-machined out of platinum.

 

The word I heard was that ammo makers equipment was used to make .380 or 9mm. Since they were cranking 9mm out to keep up stocks .380 stocks were not being covered.

[shep854]

The word I heard was that ammo makers equipment was used to make .380 or 9mm. Since they were cranking 9mm out to keep up stocks .380 stocks were not being covered.

That was the explanation I was. This was during the "Obama Panic" of 2008-2009, when people were binge-buying guns and ammo. If the gun-banners are really serious about reducing gun ownership, they should just shut up...

----

In Nailcreek's case, the hoplophilia is incubating nicely.

[Indy_Shark]

Check out the Walther P99!

[Nailcreek]

I'm relatively familiar with firearms, and own a couple of 1911A1s (Norinco with a tuned extractor and Novak sights and a Springfield Loaded) and an XD40. The 1911 is too heavy and bulky for my taste and the XD40 is just too blocky to be carried comfortably. My other firearms aren't really concealable ... hard to hide a Garand, Martini Henry or a Trapdoor

 

I've owned a Ruger Security Six eons ago, but the wheelgun hasn't done much for me. I was kicking around buying one for deer hunting, but thought better of it and have stuck to my CZ550FS instead.

[WRW]

a slight deviation

 

here in Turkey CC is somewhat different - many men carry hand bags into which you could easily fit a cut down shotgun

 

in fact not a long while ago came across a couple of gentle men trying to CC some MP5s - ruined the lines in the jacket

[BansheeOne]

How about the new SIG P224?

 

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p224-sas.aspx

 

I think I hust had a slight sigasm.

[Ivanhoe]

a slight deviation

 

here in Turkey CC is somewhat different - many men carry hand bags into which you could easily fit a cut down shotgun

 

in fact not a long while ago came across a couple of gentle men trying to CC some MP5s - ruined the lines in the jacket

 

http://media.photobucket.com/image/%2522ar-15%20pistol%2522%20bag/scocor83/Tennis2-1.jpg

 

Somewhat amusingly, in many states that have decent CCW laws, one can carry a loaded AR-15 pistol in a bag, as above. If you prefer open carry,

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/372/m16mangw0.jpg/

[shep854]

I'm relatively familiar with firearms, and own a couple of 1911A1s (Norinco with a tuned extractor and Novak sights and a Springfield Loaded) and an XD40. The 1911 is too heavy and bulky for my taste and the XD40 is just too blocky to be carried comfortably. My other firearms aren't really concealable ... hard to hide a Garand, Martini Henry or a Trapdoor

 

I've owned a Ruger Security Six eons ago, but the wheelgun hasn't done much for me. I was kicking around buying one for deer hunting, but thought better of it and have stuck to my CZ550FS instead.

Since you have handgun experience, and mentioned CZ, the compact iterations of the CZ75 would be a good start for a CCW search. You can always buy others...

----

That P224 looks interesting, but with that cut-back grip, it just looks odd. Also, at 25oz, it's a good bit heavier than the P11, which also happens to take S&W 59 mags. For a confirmed Sig-o-phile, it should be a good choice.

[rmgill]

Hmm, came across a FNP-40 for $430 and with 5 magazines....I'm really thinking of upgrading to a new Carry sidearm. Any pros/cons to these?

[V42]

Try as many guns as possible on a range, then go for the smallest and lightest you feel comfortable shooting, and can get on target with quickly and consistently.

 

Analysis of a huge number of actual close-range one-on-one gunfights has revealed that the calibre of the gun is unimportant to the outcome: it's where you hit that matters.

 

That study you refer to is flawed and a product of faulty logic.

 

By his own admission the author of the study tried to record every shooting he could find. This includes lots of situations where an armed person shot an unarmed person, including people who were not interested in fighting in the first place. It also included people shot who were not very serious about posing a threat, or even citizens not wanting to fight who shot by criminals.

 

All of those categories fall under the heading of "every shooting he could find."

 

The shootings may have also occurred when an argument between punks or drunks escalated ino a shooting, often of an unarmed person who in not in a mindset to fight, with the shooter being the aggressor and the person who is shot wisely decides to back off, acquiece, submit, flee, or drops in surprise the way he has seen people do when shot in the movies.

 

Shooting someone who isn't serious, may not be armed, and is afraid of you isn't the same as shooting an of objective driven violent criminal attacker.

 

I think it is admirable what the person who wrote this study tried to do, but I am afraid the methodology wasn't quite there.

 

In other words I would not try to extrapolate any of his results on what would work for me if confronted by a violent criminal.

 

Just to clarify, bullet placement is very, very important, but you also need something that can penetrate deep through anatomic structures and make a big hole while doing so.

 

There are other issues such as size of the gun for concealled carry, reliability, controllability of the caliber, etc, that you must work around to find a balance. But I think that study that claims that caliber is unimportant is not valid for the reasons I stated.

 

There is a reason why the police in the US don't authorize anything smaller than 9mm or .38 pecial for standard carry.

Edited January 20, 2012 by V42

[Tony Williams]

That study you refer to is flawed and a product of faulty logic.

 

By his own admission the author of the study tried to record every shooting he could find. This includes lots of situations where an armed person shot an unarmed person, including people who were not interested in fighting in the first place. It also included people shot who were not very serious about posing a threat, or even citizens not wanting to fight who shot by criminals.

 

All of those categories fall under the heading of "every shooting he could find."

 

The shootings may have also occurred when an argument between punks or drunks escalated ino a shooting, often of an unarmed person who in not in a mindset to fight, with the shooter being the aggressor and the person who is shot wisely decides to back off, acquiece, submit, flee, or drops in surprise the way he has seen people do when shot in the movies.

 

Shooting someone who isn't serious, may not be armed, and is afraid of you isn't the same as shooting an of objective driven violent criminal attacker.

 

I think it is admirable what the person who wrote this study tried to do, but I am afraid the methodology wasn't quite there.

 

In other words I would not try to extrapolate any of his results on what would work for me if confronted by a violent criminal.

 

Just to clarify, bullet placement is very, very important, but you also need something that can penetrate deep through anatomic structures and make a big hole while doing so.

 

There are other issues such as size of the gun for concealled carry, reliability, controllability of the caliber, etc, that you must work around to find a balance. But I think that study that claims that caliber is unimportant is not valid for the reasons I stated.

 

There is a reason why the police in the US don't authorize anything smaller than 9mm or .38 pecial for standard carry.

OK noted, thanks.

 

One point I made that no-one's picked up concerns the use of a laser pointer attached to the gun (these can either fit under the barrel or within a modified grip). I've not had the opportunity to try one of these myself but recall reading an account by someone (on this forum?) concerning the training of a group of tyro pistol shooters. They were all having great difficulty in hitting the target until he gave them guns fitted with laser pointers, when they started hitting with ease. This makes sense to me, at pistol fighting ranges it's surely much easier and quicker to observe the red dot on the target and correct the aim than it is to line up iron sights, especially in dim light. And, as I mentioned, it could have an obvious deterrent effect. Anyone have any comments/experiences about this?

[BansheeOne]

Some folks hold that people will look out for the laser dot instead of aiming their gun and thereby lose crucial time to engage, particularly if they are brought up on this technique and come to rely on seeing the dot. I have no practical experience with lasers myself, though I guess at pistol range they would make the best possible targeting aid since optical sights will have bulk issues while a laser can even be swapped out for the main spring guide rod.