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Ever a Conspiracy Theory Proven True?


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Tonight while driving home I tuned into Art Bell's midnight talk show on the AM station. I'm do not care for the show but I was bored trying to stay alert driving on the highway. He had a guest on who was ranting about his conspiracy theory that the contrails you see in the sky from planes are really chemicals to keep the population in line. He even went so far as to propose they put biological agents in the "chem trails:" as he called them to kill us if we got out of line. After turning off the radio I went back to staring out at the empty road and got to wondering if ever was what was once considered a outlandish conspiracy theory had been later proven to be true?

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Tonight while driving home I tuned into Art Bell's midnight talk show on the AM station. I'm do not care for the show but I was bored trying to stay alert driving on the highway. He had a guest on who was ranting about his conspiracy theory that the contrails you see in the sky from planes are really chemicals to keep the population in line. He even went so far as to propose they put biological agents in the "chem trails:" as he called them to kill us if we got out of line. After turning off the radio I went back to staring out at the empty road and got to wondering if ever was what was once considered a outlandish conspiracy theory had been later proven to be true?

 

Art Bell is the radio King of Conspiracies. My older brother is his adoring minion.

 

My older brother believes in any conspiracy you can name - who REALLY killed JFK (the Mob or Castro or the CIA), who REALLY pulled off the OKC bombing and got away (not McVeigh - supposedly "Arabs"), the US never really landed a spaceship and human being on the moon (it was staged and filmed on Earth), the US government is hiding all sorts of info (including physical evidence) of past civilizations on the moon, of captured aliens and/or their spacecraft from the public. He believes in Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, and ghosts etc. AND, he keeps them (in the conspiracy industry) supplied with his time, energy and money (through purchases of films, books, going to lectures etc.).

 

About the only conspiracies he doesn't seem to fall for is the Obama birth thing and any of the "we perpetrated 9/11 on ourselves in order to start a war" conspiracies.

 

None of the conspiracies in which he believes has been proven true. Nearly all of the conspiracies in which he believes will never be proven true and THAT keeps people (like my brother) hanging on and financially supporting the multi-million dollar businesses that build their foundation on unproven conspiracies.

 

Have you ever played tug-of-war with a dog and it pulls and pulls on the object, then you just give up and let the dog have the object? Nine times out of ten, the dog will not be satisfied with having "won" the object and will bring the object back to you so that you can grab it and play tug-of-war all over again. That's how I see the conspiracy business and its followers - the "fun" is in the fight and the fun is in the "chase for "the truth." It would really be a let-down if any of these things was finally settled and put to rest once and for all to those that believe it, participate in pursuing it, support it and perpetrate it.

Edited by Rocky Davis
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Tonight while driving home I tuned into Art Bell's midnight talk show on the AM station. I'm do not care for the show but I was bored trying to stay alert driving on the highway. He had a guest on who was ranting about his conspiracy theory that the contrails you see in the sky from planes are really chemicals to keep the population in line. He even went so far as to propose they put biological agents in the "chem trails:" as he called them to kill us if we got out of line. After turning off the radio I went back to staring out at the empty road and got to wondering if ever was what was once considered a outlandish conspiracy theory had been later proven to be true?

 

Well in the specific example you mention its obviously incorrect because in this part of the world those planes use chemicals to decrease rainfall :lol:

 

Idiots are a universal commodity :glare:

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What about the 'Queens Gay brother flys sunderland flying boat into mountainside whilst drunk?' Allegedly. :unsure:

Get it right. 'Queens bisexual drug addict uncle flies Sunderland flying boat into mountainside whilst drunk'.

Allegedly. :lol:

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Given that Oswald lived in the USSR and Cuba, you could say there was a tenuous link to Cuba :ninja:

Since there was a DEA office in the Murrah building, I wondered why no one seemed to have considered a drug cartel.

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The long-running effort by the Russians to infiltrate the US federal government is considered a baseless conspiracy theory by most people. It turns out, given the transcripts of the Venona intercepts and subsequent confirmation from Russian archives, that the Russians were remarkably successful at placing agents.

 

People dismissed concerns about the federal government in the US targeting conservatives as "enemies of the state". The leakage of a DHS document ascribing potential terrorism menace from former servicemen, abortion foes, etc. indicates that its not just wild imagination.

 

And not too long ago, it was completely outlandish to theorize that the federal government would arrange to have Mexican drug cartels buy a bunch of guns in the US, so that they would finally have proof that American guns contribute to violent crime in the border areas. Turns out, that was exactly what they were doing.

 

But real conspiracies usually aren't juicy enough to generate interest. Claim that extraterrestrials in human form are secretly controlling the world, you'll sell millions of books. Claim that Julius Rosenberg was guilty and you're a crackpot.

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The long-running effort by the Russians to infiltrate the US federal government is considered a baseless conspiracy theory by most people. It turns out, given the transcripts of the Venona intercepts and subsequent confirmation from Russian archives, that the Russians were remarkably successful at placing agents.

 

That is the one example that I had come to mind.

 

Incidentally, is Art Bell still broadcasting? I thought he had retired. I used to listen to a lot of his broadcasts, right up to the point when he started his rather strange protest against over the US involvement in the former Yugoslavia.

 

You're right. He is retired. My tired mind forgot that it's now hosted by George Noory.

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Tonight while driving home I tuned into Art Bell's midnight talk show on the AM station. I'm do not care for the show but I was bored trying to stay alert driving on the highway. He had a guest on who was ranting about his conspiracy theory that the contrails you see in the sky from planes are really chemicals to keep the population in line. He even went so far as to propose they put biological agents in the "chem trails:" as he called them to kill us if we got out of line. After turning off the radio I went back to staring out at the empty road and got to wondering if ever was what was once considered a outlandish conspiracy theory had been later proven to be true?

These are just a few of the images we've recorded. And you can see, it wasn't what we thought. There's been no war here and no terraforming event. The environment is stable. It's the Pax. The G-23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate that we added to the air processors. It was supposed to calm the population, weed out aggression. Well, it works. The people here stopped fighting. And then they stopped everything else. They stopped going to work, they stopped breeding, talking, eating. There's 30 million people here, and they all just let themselves die.

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After turning off the radio I went back to staring out at the empty road and got to wondering if ever was what was once considered a outlandish conspiracy theory had been later proven to be true?

I'd take a stab at defining 'outlandish conspiracy theories' as those which assume large networks of people, especially in non-totalitarian govts, can keep a secret about actions clearly and intentionally against the public interest and the nominal rules of the society. All evidence is that people in other than the most regimented societies just can't do that.

 

People in govt who know of say intelligence efforts which violate some rules, might still all reasonably believe the ends justify the means in terms of the general public interest, and keep the secret, at least among a relatively limited number for awhile. But that's just not plausible for a broad conspiracy to cover up 'the truth' of a JFK assasination involving the govt (especially after almost 50 years), 9/11 inside job, contrails to control the population, etc.

 

It's an approximate defintion, but none of the examples given so far qualify as 'outlandish conspiracy theories that turned out true', IMO. For example it was a well known that the Soviets were relatively successful placing agents in Germany and Britain WWII/postwar. It stood to reason they were trying in the US. In part because some on the right irresponsibly accused particular Americans of communist connections without proof, even moderate center-left people long tended toward a kneejerk to understate the possiblity, and the extreme popularized version of that often became ridiculous. But it was never generally accepted as an 'outlandish theory' that the Soviets had recruited agents in the US. Recently DHS did not 'target conservatives as enemies of the state'. They made debateable assessments of the possibility of terrorism coming for example from some small splinter of disaffected war veterans, based on the real (though isolated) example of Tim McVeigh. Debateable assessments, but hardly 'outlandish' to suppose such assessments might be made. 'Fast and Furious' lacks evidence of malign intent. Govt agencies do stupid things all the time, try to cover up, but are exposed. It's hardly 'outlandish conspiracy theory' to expect scandals of that type and relatively limited scale, periodically; they are inevitable.

 

Joe

Edited by JOE BRENNAN
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What if the real conspiracy is to make a lot of preposterous conspiracies to divert attention from the real conspiracy?

 

Well, that was the last I heard about "pod" theory and "no Boeing at Pentagon" theory - part of conspiracy theorists claims that both were devised by THEM to discredit conspiracy theories and to cover up the REAL conspiracy B)

 

As for real conspiracies, I would say about the biggest was Op Fortitude, but it shows also problems: You need high degree of control of comm channels, you need tremendous resources - and to haved them the "thing" has to be important enough. Generally it is possible to throw up massive coverup in strict authoritarian police state - but even then, RumInt works. And the less people know the better.

 

Now of course it would be possible that some group intentionally let 09/11 happen (though simple lack of communications would be much, much more probable and realistic), but theoretically just few people could be involved. On the other hand a conspiracy to attack Pentagon with a missile (or Global Hawk or whatever) and make it look like a 757 crashed there would necessarily have to involve thousands or tens of thousands people.

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Turned out he was very friendly with the Royal Gentleman in question, and was in said Sunderland when it was wrapped around the hillside. Allegedly.

It wasn't allegedly wrapped around a Scottish mountain. That bit's not really disputed. Lots of wreckage & several corpses. The alleged bits are that the person referred to was flying (despite, AFAIK, not being cleared to fly a Sunderland) & was drunk.

 

Given his proclivities, he may have been stone-cold sober, & still off his head. Coked up to the eyeballs was more his style - or so I have heard. With a bit of morphine to bring him down when he'd overdone the Bolivian Marching Powder.

 

Back to the topic, what do you think about the theory that he was Done In to stop him being such a bloody embarrassment? :D

Edited by swerve
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You've got different levels of conspiracy to contend with, too. One one level, you have something legitimate like Operation Fortitude. An actual, honest-to-God ploy, stratagem, or whatever you want to term it. These are historically verifiable, and usually are a lot more prosaic than the other sort.

 

Then, you have the level at which you find the Illuminati ideas, Area 51 speculation (when everyone knows it's actually the Air Force hiding HAZMAT from the EPA...), and a whole raft of other things reaching to Erich von Daniken's Ancient Astronauts. These are usually so outlandish as to be self-satirizing, and generally do not ever manage to graduate to the other "verified conspiracy" level. Occasionally, they do--One of my bosses remembered his thesis for his Master's Degree in History being rejected as being "insanely outlandish" back in the mid-1960s. What was it? Oh, something completely insane, which was the idea that the Allies had been reading every coded transmission made by the Germans and Japanese during WWII. He'd come to that conclusion by analysis of things that happened in the war, and concluded that there were too many "convenient accidents" for there to be another explanation. Then came the "Ultra" revelations...

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These are just a few of the images we've recorded. And you can see, it wasn't what we thought. There's been no war here and no terraforming event. The environment is stable. It's the Pax. The G-23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate that we added to the air processors. It was supposed to calm the population, weed out aggression. Well, it works. The people here stopped fighting. And then they stopped everything else. They stopped going to work, they stopped breeding, talking, eating. There's 30 million people here, and they all just let themselves die.

 

That's why I never kiss them on the mouth.

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Conspiracy theories challenge the listener to believe one of two things: do you believe poorly-informed and contrived nonsense based on loose associations or are you really so naive as to think the powers-that-be wouldn't try such a thing?

 

I'll never ever be a truther, believing that the government put explosives in the WTC. And if you heat steel enough, it won't melt, but it loses enough tensile strength. However, Atta & company's flight school visas were expired well over a year. I've heard that plans for the attack were known by our intelligence agencies. So, was the government sleeping on the job and forgetting to deport them? Or did the government learn of the attack plans and allowed them to be carried out in order to exploit an opportunity for greater control? Although I do believe it's the former, I wouldn't put it past the govt if the latter were true. The PATRIOT Act fuels my beliefs on this.

 

Then you have other situations, like Columbine. I heard rumors that a third shooter was there that was immediately picked up by the FBI afterwards, but I have no confirmed sources. Also, I heard that the boys weren't picked on that much, but one of them actually was a bully in his own right. And the Cassie Burnall story was a practice in tugging heartstrings. The shootings occur, then we get the assault weapons ban. I've heard similar happening in Australia and Canada, someone goes on a shooting rampage and the aftermath involves tighter gun controls.

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I hear someone knocking . . . :wacko:

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Back to the topic, what do you think about the theory that he was Done In to stop him being such a bloody embarrassment? :D

Utterly ludicrous. Prince Andrew is proof enough of that :lol:

I've heard similar happening in Australia and Canada, someone goes on a shooting rampage and the aftermath involves tighter gun controls.

ISTR being told that the thomas hamilton (of the dunblane massacre) was allowed to own several pistols for "target shooting" without being a member of a shooting club. I cannot recall where, or find confirmation on the web, but it is v. suspicious... (in england to posses a firearm you need a reason, if the reason is target shooting the police will always want to see membership of a target shooting club. yet in this case they didn't, apparently)

The suspicions of his inappropriate activites with minors, however, are far easier to back up. he was reported to the police in 1991 for many charges including assault and contravention of the children and young persons act 1937 so how come when he renewed his FAC in the 5 years between then and the massacre, that incident didn't come up?

Edited by Max H
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What if the real conspiracy is to make a lot of preposterous conspiracies to divert attention from the real conspiracy?

 

Delta Green or "UFOs are elaborate coax by Mi-Go to fool humans that about their own plans".

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Conspiracy theories challenge the listener to believe one of two things: do you believe poorly-informed and contrived nonsense based on loose associations or are you really so naive as to think the powers-that-be wouldn't try such a thing?

 

I'll never ever be a truther, believing that the government put explosives in the WTC. And if you heat steel enough, it won't melt, but it loses enough tensile strength. However, Atta & company's flight school visas were expired well over a year. I've heard that plans for the attack were known by our intelligence agencies.

 

 

CIA knew about the weird guys who were in the US past their visas, and taking flying lessons. But a certain asshat in the Reno Justice Department named Eric Holder, along with a coworker named Jamie Gorelick, put a "firewall" in place which forbade CIA communicating such information to FBI for domestic counterintel work. Gorelick shouldn't have been on the 9/11 committee, she should have been in front of a fcuking firing squad, along with Holder. Instead she went on to the board of Fannie Mae and raked in millions while presiding over the sabotage of our economy.

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CIA knew about the weird guys who were in the US past their visas, and taking flying lessons. But a certain asshat in the Reno Justice Department named Eric Holder, along with a coworker named Jamie Gorelick, put a "firewall" in place which forbade CIA communicating such information to FBI for domestic counterintel work. Gorelick shouldn't have been on the 9/11 committee, she should have been in front of a fcuking firing squad, along with Holder. Instead she went on to the board of Fannie Mae and raked in millions while presiding over the sabotage of our economy.

 

That's my understanding of the problem. The information (not only the visa thing, for example also the mentions from flight school that they seemed to be keen on flying and not keen on landing) WAS there, but in two dozen place over a dozen agencies.

 

Of course the opoposite extreme that came afterwards - putting all info in one big heap - didn't work out so well (paging Mr. Manning)...

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CIA knew about the weird guys who were in the US past their visas, and taking flying lessons. But a certain asshat in the Reno Justice Department named Eric Holder, along with a coworker named Jamie Gorelick, put a "firewall" in place which forbade CIA communicating such information to FBI for domestic counterintel work. Gorelick shouldn't have been on the 9/11 committee, she should have been in front of a fcuking firing squad, along with Holder. Instead she went on to the board of Fannie Mae and raked in millions while presiding over the sabotage of our economy.

 

You missed a few details. Jamie Gorelick also put a stop to the FBI's domestic terrorism intelligence cell talking to the law enforcement side, and post-9/11 analysis showed that both parties had pieces of the puzzle that could have been put together in order to stop 9/11 from happening. When she finished at Justice, she moved on to DOD, where she was instrumental in stopping a pilot intelligence fusion program put together by the Special Operations Command. The COL in charge of that was forced to retire, and all of the gathered data was archived or shredded. Recovered information tends to support the contention that that pilot program had identified suspicious activity and patterns on 15 of the 19 hijackers. Democrats later were instrumental in placing Jamie Gorelick on the actual 9/11 committee, and when one connects the dots, you have to wonder what precisely Sandy Berger took out of the National Archives--And, why.

 

Frankly, if I see Jamie Gorelick's name anywhere, I immediately smell something bad is going on. One time, accident--Twice, coincidence. Three times? That's enemy action, one way or another.

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