Guest JamesG123 Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Somewhat seasonal in its effectiveness, I suspect - much more of a deterrent in cold winter weather than in the middle of a summer heatwave! Depends on if its just plain water or has some extra ingredients. The main problem with water cannon is that you need an entire specialist vehicle devoted to carrying one. A fire truck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Steele Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 ....I hope it is appreciated that a weapon developed for use against the savages, is equally applicable against your own people. Looking ahead to 2012 are we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Williams Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 A fire truck?UK fire trucks don't have that kind of turret-mounted nozzle, AFAIK. They use hand-held hoses. In any case, I could imagine the ructions if fire engines were used for riot control. I'm sure that would be rejected on principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thekirk Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 You can't get around it, period. When it makes sense to use an HMG-delivered baton round, you're already past the point where lethal weapons should have been deployed. You're better off putting your money into developing long-range OC deployment measures, or something that can be as easily deployed as the HMG. The energy levels for the batons, plus the fact we're talking about converting an area-fire weapon over for crowd control... Well, it just doesn't make sense. I honestly can't think of a single scenario in any of the riot control training that we did where such a tool even began to make sense. Fire departments are also just not going to buy off on the police or military borrowing their gear to do riot control. Hell, from what I remember, they're not allowed to fill the water trucks in Europe from fire mains because of this--They're supposed to go back to a dedicated water source, so they don't give the protesters a reason to sabotage fire mains in the area of the protest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamesG123 Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Doesn't mean you can't paint a fire truck blue or otherwise apply the same technology for a dedicated riot control vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr King Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 The riot control HMG sounds like a solution in search of a problem. I dont think you are going to see fire hoses deployed as riot control measures anytime in the near future here in the US. Looks to ugly on TV. Just look at the knee jerk responses of the various civilian leaderships to the use of something as mundane and harmless as OC by police officers under their authority at various OWS protests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
istvan47 Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 The "best" mass crowd control weapon is still the water cannon. Effective at breaking up a crowd, but without the serious negative publicity and second order effects of using "machine guns and claymore mines on a crowd". The media and public are not going to discriminate the technical distinctions when they see cops/soliders standing in front a pile of bodies bleeding and missing eyes. This shit is simply the ol' military industrial complex trying to cash in on a new market niche and its both counter-productive and dangerous. All its going to do is cause an escalation of violence. The protestors will see your "less lethal" munitions and raise you with IEDs and sniper fire. Those look like the real deal to me. Too right. In Egypt there is aven a medic involved both in the uprising of january and now. He lost one eye then and one now. The egyptian police/army has started to fire 'non letal bullets' at the face of the 'targets'. This happened also in Spain sometimes. Not to talk about the deaths caused by tasers (even in Canada) and the pepper spray used to torture and blind protesters (and pain and fear to be blinded is for the most part of the beings, even stronger to be killed on the spot). In Hungary, 1956, one of the first killed was a youngman hit in the face by a smoke grenade explosion. Never play with such gears. Mk-19 would make a massacre if switching to HE ammos, and it is not even good enough as precision strike. The best non lethal ammunition would be a sort of 'flash-bang' type, that could scare everyone and repeal any crowd attack. Making sure that it explodes only in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Doesn't mean you can't paint a fire truck blue or otherwise apply the same technology for a dedicated riot control vehicle.In other words, buy a specialist vehicle for the police. As noted, British police did that and have stationed all six in NI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamesG123 Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 They nead moar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Owen Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Too right. Mk-19 would make a massacre if switching to HE ammos, and it is not even good enough as precision strike. The best non lethal ammunition would be a sort of 'flash-bang' type, that could scare everyone and repeal any crowd attack. Making sure that it explodes only in the air. One likes to imagine there is no way the lethal and nonlethal munitions can be confused for each other, but no matter how foolproof something is, there's always a fool bigger than the proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BansheeOne Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 (edited) The main problem with water cannon is that you need an entire specialist vehicle devoted to carrying one. There are scalable systems like IFEX's impulse water cannon. The Dual Intruder palettized variant has been mounted on a Duro/Yak for German military police by Rheinmetall, but it is also available in man-portable size. Edited November 27, 2011 by BansheeOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Williams Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 In the type of riot serious enough to justify the use of water cannon, police vehicles may themselves come under attack from bricks and even molotov cocktails. So they (and more importantly their crews) need to be protected against such missiles. Makeshift arrangements for sticking water cannon on the back of a truck are unlikely to prove acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marek Tucan Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Czech police experimented with a kinda oversized spring-loaded gun firing tennis balls. Dunno how did it end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BansheeOne Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 In the type of riot serious enough to justify the use of water cannon, police vehicles may themselves come under attack from bricks and even molotov cocktails. So they (and more importantly their crews) need to be protected against such missiles. Makeshift arrangements for sticking water cannon on the back of a truck are unlikely to prove acceptable. That's why you would use protected vehicles with modular loads like the Yak. But in fact I thought more along the lines that you could stick an HMG-sized water cannon of this kind on any vehicle (tank, APC, what have you) which would otherwise carry an AGL with less-lethal rounds, which everybody seems to agree is a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EchoFiveMike Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Your snipers simply shoot the agitators in the head. If you're mean, you buy suppressed 22LR rifles and shoot them in the genitals and legs. And hopefully eliminate future generations of shitheads before they start. S/F....Ken M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Hoting Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Modern water cannons can also add OC or CS to the spray, or use "Skunk" like the Israelis. If all that does not suffice, start using Canister... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Steele Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Riot control. Never had these discussions about The Bush Regime..... I'm just sayin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmgill Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Czech police experimented with a kinda oversized spring-loaded gun firing tennis balls. Dunno how did it end. To many returns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivanhoe Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 To many returns? Now we know how a dinky little country has produced so many world-class tennis players. All part of a strategic weapon system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max H Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 UK fire trucks don't have that kind of turret-mounted nozzle, AFAIK. They use hand-held hoses. In any case, I could imagine the ructions if fire engines were used for riot control. I'm sure that would be rejected on principle.normal fire engines do not have a "turret", however the fire truck I saw at RAF valley a couple of years ago definitely did, and I believe all airport fire engines are similarly equipped - the one I saw even had a faux-RWS on the front bumper (it is useful for airport fire engines to be able to direct water to a moving target, like a taxiing aircraft - for normal engines, houses do not move) They nead moar!If they get really desperate there's a saracen at bovington with a water cannon... Your snipers simply shoot the agitators in the head. If you're mean, you buy suppressed 22LR rifles and shoot them in the genitals and legs. And hopefully eliminate future generations of shitheads before they start. S/F....Ken MIsraelis tried that, turned out dead rioters wasn't good PR. this means the ruger 10/22 has the (dubious) honour of being the only weapon in history to be removed from military service because it was "too deadly" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmgill Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) normal fire engines do not have a "turret", In the US they do. You can find the water cannons mounted atop pumper/tanker trucks that have onboard water as well as on snorkel engines as with a bucket on an arm. You can run piping up to the bucket to allow a crew to direct water down from above a structure fire which is not as easy to do on a ladder truck. Edited November 28, 2011 by rmgill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thekirk Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 In the US they do. You can find the water cannons mounted atop pumper/tanker trucks that have onboard water as well as on snorkel engines as with a bucket on an arm. You can run piping up to the bucket to allow a crew to direct water down from above a structure fire which is not as easy to do on a ladder truck. Be that as it may... I'm still not seeing any FD in the US letting their gear get used for riot control. Period. There's too much problem already with fire departments getting mistaken for "the man" by idiots out in some of the same areas they'd be likely to be used as riot control appliances, and the Fire guys are simply not going to willingly sign up for something that's guaranteed to remove what little ambiguity they have now. Not to mention, most of that gear is going to be needed for when the rioters start setting fires, anyway. Now, what will likely happen, and I think it already has in the LA riots a few years ago, is cooperation between cops and firefighters at fire scenes in riot conditions. I can easily see some of the firemen I know turning the hoses on rioting elements in order to clear house around their work areas at fire scenes, but that's about as far as it's likely to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr King Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 There is also the legal issues to contemplate. Turning the hoses on a mob of rioters is a use of force. Granted I am no lawyer but I do not think that firefighters are legally allowed to use force in any circumstance outside of arson investigators. Not to mention the risk of lawsuit for the local civil government. No politician in their right mind is going to send firefighters out to face a riotous mob when they are not equipped or trained for it. Even if only one or two get hurt and the civil government would be paying for years. Then there is the risk of personal law suits to the fire fighters if they injure rioters while performing acts outside of their mandated and legal capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Williams Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 As a matter of interest, a news item yesterday concerning a review of the summer's city riots in the UK mentioned that police training in the use of riot guns firing baton rounds was being stepped up, and the Metropolitan Police (= London) were contemplating buying three water-cannon vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assessor Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Be that as it may... I'm still not seeing any FD in the US letting their gear get used for riot control. Period. There's too much problem already with fire departments getting mistaken for "the man" by idiots out in some of the same areas they'd be likely to be used as riot control appliances, and the Fire guys are simply not going to willingly sign up for something that's guaranteed to remove what little ambiguity they have now. Not to mention, most of that gear is going to be needed for when the rioters start setting fires, anyway. Now, what will likely happen, and I think it already has in the LA riots a few years ago, is cooperation between cops and firefighters at fire scenes in riot conditions. I can easily see some of the firemen I know turning the hoses on rioting elements in order to clear house around their work areas at fire scenes, but that's about as far as it's likely to go.Over here in the UK, the Fire Service and ambulance paramedics all ditched their dark grey / black uniforms for outfits that were calculated to not have the remotest resemblance to the police after the Broadwater Farm riots in the 1980's. The rioters did attack firemen and ambulance crews (as well as killing one policeman) and the rest of the emergency services decided to make sure they couldn't be mistaken for the police ever again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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