Firearms of note and ridicule

[bojan]

16 hours ago, sunday said:

Good guns, I said good guns.

Sten was worst actually useful submachine gun of the WW2. But, as noted, it was actually useful*. Quirks were quirks, MG42 and StG44 also had own (whole host of problems with bolt bounce with MG42, very low lifetime for StG44), and so did MP-40 (also mag issues), Thompson (in global scales worst WW2 SMG), etc, etc. Even top 3-4 WW2 SMGs (PPS-43, Suomi, PPSh, Beretta) had their host of issues. But those were compromises everyone was willing to live with in order to get as many SMGs as possible.

Sten would have been much better if (like Aussies did with Owen) Brits copied Beretta magazine, and not one from MP-40. Alas, they had "previous experience" with single-feed/double-stack magazines and did not have one with double-feed/double-stack, so they went with known route, even if it was way inferior and lead to a host of magazine related issues.

*Sten > Bolt action rifle >>> any kind of pistol.

 

[sunday]

Ok, ok...

[Markus Becker]

2 hours ago, bojan said:

Pretty much crash od demand. Some of the small companies that survived WW1 and '20s went bust. Bigger ones survived by rationalizing, keeping minimum of workers to keep low rate production and selling existing stock.

In some cases stock was not finished pistols but almost finished parts, IIRC even at the start of WW2 Colt used some 1911 frames they have made in the late '20s and had them on hand.

 

I wonder how much inventory was normal to have in storage at the time. These days everyone maximizes the effort to minimize stuff in storage. 

100 years ago. Cheap storage space, no swift production with CAD/CAM and thus months of output in storage and partially produced in the "pipeline" of production machinery. 

[sunday]

"Obrez"-ed M2 Carbine

 

[17thfabn]

34 minutes ago, sunday said:

"Obrez"-ed M2 Carbine

The M2 Carbine in full size stock and barrel was said to be very hard to handle. The 30 cal M1 Carbine ammo was much more powerful than than a 9 mm or .45 . With chopped barrel and stock it would be even harder to handle, after two shots you have an anti-aircraft gun. 

M3 grease guns would be better in close quarters. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

On 10/12/2025 at 2:02 PM, bojan said:

Sten was worst actually useful submachine gun of the WW2. But, as noted, it was actually useful*. Quirks were quirks, MG42 and StG44 also had own (whole host of problems with bolt bounce with MG42, very low lifetime for StG44), and so did MP-40 (also mag issues), Thompson (in global scales worst WW2 SMG), etc, etc. Even top 3-4 WW2 SMGs (PPS-43, Suomi, PPSh, Beretta) had their host of issues. But those were compromises everyone was willing to live with in order to get as many SMGs as possible.

Sten would have been much better if (like Aussies did with Owen) Brits copied Beretta magazine, and not one from MP-40. Alas, they had "previous experience" with single-feed/double-stack magazines and did not have one with double-feed/double-stack, so they went with known route, even if it was way inferior and lead to a host of magazine related issues.

*Sten > Bolt action rifle >>> any kind of pistol.

 

Yes, the story is that if you hold the gun via the magazine (as in the movies) you create rock between the magazine and the feed and creates a jam. There was also the amusing quirk that if you remove the stock, which I think was part of the recoil mechanism, it also jams. In fact it jams a lot, unless you drop it, in which case its probably going to go off.

The remarkable thing is that the American special forces were still using it as late as Vietnam. The Silenced variant seemingly wasnt bettered for quite some time in the west. Just dont fire it on automatic unless you want to replace most of the baffles.

 

[old_goat]

More SMGs, from Ian Mccollum, this time the post-war hungarian Kucher K1. As he noted, it is an incredibly ugly gun, but in practice, it was quite damn good. Simple (almost primitive), cheap, but reliable and accurate. In local tests it was singnificantly superior to both PPSh-41 and PPS-43. Manufacturing quality was also significantly higher.

 

[Ivanhoe]

Glock overhauling their product portfolio, apparently in response to lawsuits about the switch thing. Mr. Guns n Gear says the RUMINT is that the subcompacts (42, 43, 43X, and 48) will remain while Glock's elves work on a lawsuit-resistant lockwork design. 

 

 

 

[Markus Becker]

5 hours ago, old_goat said:

More SMGs, from Ian Mccollum, this time the post-war hungarian Kucher K1. As he noted, it is an incredibly ugly gun, but in practice, it was quite damn good. Simple (almost primitive), cheap, but reliable and accurate. In local tests it was singnificantly superior to both PPSh-41 and PPS-43. Manufacturing quality was also significantly higher.

 

 

Doesn't look particularly ugly to me. Just the typical post war simplicity. 

 

[rmgill]

On 10/19/2025 at 12:03 PM, 17thfabn said:

The M2 Carbine in full size stock and barrel was said to be very hard to handle. The 30 cal M1 Carbine ammo was much more powerful than than a 9 mm or .45 . With chopped barrel and stock it would be even harder to handle, after two shots you have an anti-aircraft gun. 

Masaad Ayoob talks abut the New York Stakeout Squad in the 1960s and 70s using M1 carbines. They staked out the places most likely to be robbed and got into a LOT of gunfights. 

Jim Cirillo was the one in particular Mas talks about in several settings I've seen. Apparently they used 110 grain jhp which, at close range had plenty of energy. 

[shep854]

Might we finally be getting close to  a practical 40mm grenade replacement?

https://www.northropgrumman.com/what-we-do/advanced-weapons/guided-projectiles-and-precision-weapons/precision-grenadier-system

Northrop/Grumman Precision Grenadier System

Edited October 21 by shep854

[Ivanhoe]

My Gawd, that thing actually looks like a rifle! Don't let the Ordnance Board find out, or they'll bolt on 6 pounds of weird-ass attachments (solar panel, SatNav, etc). 

 

[Ivanhoe]

5 hours ago, rmgill said:

Jim Cirillo was the one in particular Mas talks about in several settings I've seen. Apparently they used 110 grain jhp which, at close range had plenty of energy. 
 

Most here know that Cirillo is credited with inventing the New York Reload. One of those things that was well-known in the 18th and 19th centuries, then quietly killed by the policy wonks. Amusing that a high-risk warrant service squad said FU to the spit-and-polish types and developed methods to increase officer survival. 

That alone makes Cirillo a hero to me. 

[Markus Becker]

Regarding the current Glock mess

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ivanhoe]

An afternoon with the Boys (skip to 1:50 to get past the silly crap);

 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Ideal for any sandworms.

[shep854]

The very conception and gestation of the AR15

 

[Markus Becker]

Funky pistol. 

 

Enter B from S to tell us all the features have been around for 125 years because of some forgotten early semis.  😇

[shep854]

21 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

Funky pistol. 

 

Enter B from S to tell us all the features have been around for 125 years because of some forgotten early semis.  😇

I was thinking about that, too.  Ian did point out that this pistol is a pretty fair departure from the cut & paste of the past century.

[shep854]

NOTE: It works!  Ian puts one right through a piece of armor plate that stopped 7.62x51 ball cold! Shooting starts at 9:00

 

 

 

Edited November 15 by shep854

[Markus Becker]

Looks interesting. I wonder if there is a relation to 7,63 x 25. The length and shape fits. 

 

And old but advanced and unusual one.

 

 

 

[Pale Rider]

16 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

Looks interesting. I wonder if there is a relation to 7,63 x 25. The length and shape fits. 

No relation. 6,5x25 is a necked down 9mm para.

[sunday]

I vaguely recall a Swedish development with a not saboted bullet quite similar to this 6.5x25, like an APCR instead of an APDS round, but in full 9mm caliber.

[Markus Becker]

31 minutes ago, Pale Rider said:

No relation. 6,5x25 is a necked down 9mm para.

Indeed. Watched it and that has the potential to Make Submachine Guns Military Firearms Again! 

2400 fps out of a Glock with a 4" barrel? Who would have thought that the anti APC pistol could become a thing? 😉

On a more realistic note, anti body armor. 

[shep854]

1 hour ago, Markus Becker said:

Indeed. Watched it and that has the potential to Make Submachine Guns Military Firearms Again! 

2400 fps out of a Glock with a 4" barrel? Who would have thought that the anti APC pistol could become a thing? 😉

On a more realistic note, anti body armor. 

I found myself wondering how soon until the cartridge starts turning up in the Wrong Hands?