Firearms of note and ridicule

[shep854]

7 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

America's worst service rifle:

https://playeur.com/v/_uaPTjp8RlO

 

Fail wise I'm more impressed by the idea of the M15 LMG. The USA does in the 50s, when GPMG become "The Thing" what FN had already done in the early 30s with the Model D. 

This makes me wonder what the M14 story would have been had its initial manufacture not been screwed up by H&R and WInchester.  

[sunday]

4 hours ago, shep854 said:

This makes me wonder what the M14 story would have been had its initial manufacture not been screwed up by H&R and WInchester.  

It is a beautiful rifle, but those internals are a bit too much kludgy.

[Markus Becker]

4 hours ago, shep854 said:

This makes me wonder what the M14 story would have been had its initial manufacture not been screwed up by H&R and WInchester.  

What was or is the main point of criticism of the M14? The QC issues or that Springfield pushed a modernized version of .30-06 down NATO's throat despite the experience from WW2. 

And than got quickly spanked by the Air Force and the AR? 

[shep854]

5 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

What was or is the main point of criticism of the M14? The QC issues or that Springfield pushed a modernized version of .30-06 down NATO's throat despite the experience from WW2. 

And than got quickly spanked by the Air Force and the AR? 

Given the success of the FAL and G3, I was thinking along the lines of acceptance had production not stumbled the way it did.  There were a LOT of soldiers and Marines who fought to keep their M14s in Vietnam, so once it was de-bugged, it was a good combat rifle.  The M16 did not shake off its early bad reputation until the '90s.

[17thfabn]

6 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

What was or is the main point of criticism of the M14? The QC issues or that Springfield pushed a modernized version of .30-06 down NATO's throat despite the experience from WW2. 

From every thing I've read 7.62 / .308 was pushed by old school Army officers that wanted a big round, and were not on board with those new fangled pea shooter high velocity small caliber rounds.

[JDAM]

On 4/13/2024 at 1:45 AM, sunday said:

Could be an outlier.

In pod we trust ...

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/remembering-vmfa-122-f-4v-the-usmc-phantom-ii-featuring-a-unique-three-gun-pod-configuration/

[Olof Larsson]

On 4/16/2024 at 8:42 AM, Markus Becker said:

What was or is the main point of criticism of the M14? The QC issues or that Springfield pushed a modernized version of .30-06 down NATO's throat despite the experience from WW2. 

And than got quickly spanked by the Air Force and the AR? 

Well, it should be mentioned that the 7,62x51 (at least for rifles) was considered an interim solition avaiting SPIW/SALVO/NIBLICK, and that the 7,62x51 had the advantage that almost any rifle or machinegun (excluding MG's with rimmed cases that pulled the cases out of the belts) in the NATO inventory, could be converted to that caliber. Any gun in .30-06, 7.5x54, 7x57, 8x57, 6.5x52, 7.35x51 and 6.5x55 could be converted and the same for the .303 in the Lee-Enfield and BREN. The failing of the 7,62x51 was that few converted guns to the new caliber, that everyone made new guns, to mainly new designs and that the 7.62x51 stayed on and on and on.

 

20 hours ago, 17thfabn said:

From every thing I've read 7.62 / .308 was pushed by old school Army officers that wanted a big round, and were not on board with those new fangled pea shooter high velocity small caliber rounds.

When the 7.62x51 was adopted, the .223 had not even started development. The only real competition, was the much slower .280 British. At the same time the US Army was looking at super high velocity (SPIW) as the long term solution for rifles.

[Markus Becker]

13 minutes ago, Olof Larsson said:

When the 7.62x51 was adopted, the .223 had not even started development. The only real competition, was the much slower .280 British. At the same time the US Army was looking at super high velocity (SPIW) as the long term solution for rifles.

.280 wasn't like 5.56 but like 7.62*39. A fine intermediary round at the time and still ok today. 

US Ordnance seems to have asked for perfection though. 

 

Edited April 17 by Markus Becker

[Markus Becker]

 

 

[shep854]

On 4/17/2024 at 5:10 AM, Markus Becker said:

.280 wasn't like 5.56 but like 7.62*39. A fine intermediary round at the time and still ok today. 

US Ordnance seems to have asked for perfection though. 

 

By their definition of perfection.  With the XM7, there seems to be a pendulum swing.  Time will tell if it's just the wet dream of a millennial Whiz Kid...

[Argus]

On 4/17/2024 at 8:01 PM, Olof Larsson said:

<snip> and that the 7,62x51 had the advantage that almost any rifle or machinegun (excluding MG's with rimmed cases that pulled the cases out of the belts) in the NATO inventory, could be converted to that caliber. Any gun in .30-06, 7.5x54, 7x57, 8x57, 6.5x52, 7.35x51 and 6.5x55 could be converted and the same for the .303 in the Lee-Enfield and BREN. The failing of the 7,62x51 was that few converted guns to the new caliber, that everyone made new guns, to mainly new designs and that the 7.62x51 stayed on and on and on.

<snip>

To be fair most of that is more due to the Mauser brothers than anything US Ordnance did.

Edited April 22 by Argus

[Colin]

On 4/17/2024 at 3:01 AM, Olof Larsson said:

Well, it should be mentioned that the 7,62x51 (at least for rifles) was considered an interim solition avaiting SPIW/SALVO/NIBLICK, and that the 7,62x51 had the advantage that almost any rifle or machinegun (excluding MG's with rimmed cases that pulled the cases out of the belts) in the NATO inventory, could be converted to that caliber. Any gun in .30-06, 7.5x54, 7x57, 8x57, 6.5x52, 7.35x51 and 6.5x55 could be converted and the same for the .303 in the Lee-Enfield and BREN. The failing of the 7,62x51 was that few converted guns to the new caliber, that everyone made new guns, to mainly new designs and that the 7.62x51 stayed on and on and on.

 

When the 7.62x51 was adopted, the .223 had not even started development. The only real competition, was the much slower .280 British. At the same time the US Army was looking at super high velocity (SPIW) as the long term solution for rifles.

.222 Remington was developed around the same time as 7.62x51. The .222 was the basis for the .223

[Markus Becker]

On 4/17/2024 at 12:01 PM, Olof Larsson said:

Well, it should be mentioned that the 7,62x51 (at least for rifles) was considered an interim solition avaiting SPIW/SALVO/NIBLICK, and that the 7,62x51 had the advantage that almost any rifle or machinegun ... in the NATO inventory, could be converted to that caliber. Any gun in .30-06, 7.5x54, 7x57, 8x57, 6.5x52, 7.35x51 and 6.5x55 could be converted and the same for the .303 in the Lee-Enfield and BREN. The failing of the 7,62x51 was that few converted guns to the new caliber, that everyone made new guns, to mainly new designs and that the 7.62x51 stayed on and on and on.

 

That idea does sound interesting ... until you think about it. The vast majority of rifles in question were bolt actions. The very definition of obsolete tech. Even the LMG had become obsolescent. And why bother with an interim solution at all? Especially if you are not swimming in money.

[shep854]

NOT a Vietnam War jammamatic...

 

[Ivanhoe]

On 4/21/2024 at 7:20 PM, Argus said:

To be fair most of that is more due to the Mauser brothers than anything US Ordnance did.

The Mauser x57 cartridge template continues to amaze me. How TF did they get so much right, so early in the game? Time machine?

[Ivanhoe]

19 hours ago, shep854 said:

NOT a Vietnam War jammamatic...

 

https://slip2000.com/blogs/news/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14

A number of trainers who teach the AR-15 platform keep saying that the AR should be run dirty and wet. Its always worth a laugh to cruise the forums and see the whole spectrum of opinions on the best lube, from the "Your kids will be killed, raped, and eaten by cannibals if you don't use Froglube" to the folks trying to figure out which grade of motor oil works best (there's the 20W-50 camp, the 10W-40 camp, and there's probably a 5W-20 camp out there somewhere stumping around in their Sorels).

With nitrided BCGs pretty normal these days, I keep wondering when the industry will work on the friction surfaces of the bolt carrier/upper interface and the buffer/buffer spring/receiver extension. Some folks are touting the idea of a no-lube AR, I'm skeptical they're there yet.

[sunday]

Interesting, and quite unknown

 

[Ivanhoe]

https://www.henryusa.com/shotgun/garden-gun-smoothbore-22/

This is kinda interesting, a narrow niche but maybe helpful for gardeners and such. A lever-action .22LR smoothbore for shooting shot cartridges at pests eating one's veggies.

People who try to grow prize-winning roses etc. would probably prefer a full-auto .22LR smoothbore. 🤫

[Markus Becker]

3 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

The Mauser x57 cartridge template continues to amaze me. How TF did they get so much right, so early in the game? Time machine?

 

WAG: They wanted to match the performance of 8mm Lebel! Balle M and Patrone 88 are almost identical wrt projectile weight and MV. 

While the French winged it and combined the most modern propellant with an obsolete casing design, the Germans went with the most modern one. 

[Markus Becker]

15 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

https://www.henryusa.com/shotgun/garden-gun-smoothbore-22/

This is kinda interesting, a narrow niche but maybe helpful for gardeners and such. A lever-action .22LR smoothbore for shooting shot cartridges at pests eating one's veggies.

People who try to grow prize-winning roses etc. would probably prefer a full-auto .22LR smoothbore. 🤫

I saw .22 shot cartridges 30 something years ago already. Oh, smooth bore, not rifled. 

[17thfabn]

35 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

I saw .22 shot cartridges 30 something years ago already. Oh, smooth bore, not rifled. 

They had .22 shot and shot in other hand gun calibers 50 years ago. I've seen references to them even in World War II era. Probably go back much further.

I was amazed that against a glass jar they would just scratch it. But would go right through a starling. Back in the 70's there were areas in the US that were getting over run with them. They are not native to North America and can be very invasive.

 

 

[Ivanhoe]

1 hour ago, Markus Becker said:

 

WAG: They wanted to match the performance of 8mm Lebel! Balle M and Patrone 88 are almost identical wrt projectile weight and MV. 

While the French winged it and combined the most modern propellant with an obsolete casing design, the Germans went with the most modern one. 

I was thinking more about the case dimensions (rim, length/width, taper, neck length, etc). Though all the Mauser cartridges also have great ballistics, as evidenced by their worldwide use for medium and large game hunting.

[bojan]

7.9x57mm was not Mauser, but a German "rifle testing commission" design, for Gew 88 "commission" rifle. Streamline to modern 7.9x57 with spitzer bullet was also done by those. Mauser developed 7.65x53 and 7x57 from 7.9x57 case geometry, shortening first one in order to fit in already existing rifle design (original cartridge they experimented with was 8x51mm IIRC). 7x57mm was done to improve ballistics in the days before spitzer rounds , and was mostly DWM work.  6.5x55 was Swedish/Norwegian (IIRC more Norwegian than Swedish) work.

So Mauser gets credited for copying other people work

[bojan]

10 hours ago, sunday said:

Interesting, and quite unknown

 

Was made for airfield defense, as a way to reuse all the guns from F-84Gs and F-86Es that were being retired at that time. Formal rate of fire was 1050 RPM per gun, reduction from 1200rpm those formally had in aircraft instalations. Mount was made for close-in airfield defenses. Those were formally retired in 1987. but were warehoused and used in Yugoslav civil war.

Another interesting one (also made for airfield defense) is 20/3mm Mk.2, which was triple mount made from Hispano Mk .II guns from retired Mosquitos, using standard gun cradle of 20/3mm M55 ( HSS 630-3) AA gun, but with rest of carriage from retired 2cm Flak 38. Standard flash-hiders from 20mm AA guns were also added. 140 or 146 were converted and served until end of Yugoslavia.

 

 

[Markus Becker]

8 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

I was thinking more about the case dimensions (rim, length/width, taper, neck length, etc). Though all the Mauser cartridges also have great ballistics, as evidenced by their worldwide use for medium and large game hunting.

Several positive features combined:

- the Mauser action was good to begin with and constantly improved.

- sold to militaries around the world and I bet companies used military contracts to advertise their products on the commercial market 

- and rimless, straight walled rounds were a good idea too

Btw, 8*57 was an Ordnance Board round, Mauser's was 7.65*53 but they were both rimless and straight walled, like the Swiss 7.5 that pre-dates both of them. Sort of. GP 90 doesn't but the what became GP 90 was originally intended to use compressed black powder. That was changed once the Lebel rifle was revealed in 1886 but the general shape of the casing and bullet diameter wasn't. 

So everyone had examples of good and poor round design to look at in the late 1880s.