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Is the length Vs diameter of these cartridges a consequence of the propellants characteristics?

In other words, do more modern formulations allow for wider cases?

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On 10/18/2020 at 7:08 PM, bojan said:

.22 Hornet is ill suited for a larger magazines since it had way too long neck and was rimmed. IIRC also brass was pretty fragile. .250 savage was the 6.5x55 Swedish level so no real intermediate. .25 and .30 Remington were probably best of the bunch, but those also suffered from too long cartridge (they were early 20th century cartridges...). Europe before WW1 also had few comparable ones, 8.2x45mm Krnka for example, but due the WW1 those have remained obscurities.

Remember an ex-sailor is asking this but what is the difference between "rimmed" and "not-rimmed" cartridges and why does it matter in magazines and automatic weapons?" Thank you. 

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Rimmed cases have a rim extending past the major diameter of the brass. 7.62x54R, .303 British. They headspace on the rim.

Non-rimmed are the ones where rim does not protrude past the major diameter of the case - 30-06, 7.62x51, 5.56, 7.62x39 and practically any modern ammo intended for pistols or other automatic weapons.

There is also a semi-rimmed, which combines extractor groove of the non-rimmed with a small rim. 6.5x50 Arisaka, .32 ACP, .38 (not .380!) ACP/Super are the examples that survive.

Rimmed ones have problem functioning in the magazine fed (semi)automatic weapons, it is possible to do, but magazines are generally harder to design, have more curve, are longer and heavier etc. This was known since at least 1880s when first non-rimmed ones appeared.

For a machineguns using belts and pull-push feed (Maxim, Vickers, Brownings, PKM...) rimmed is not a problem however, in fact it can be seen as an advantage since extractor has more area to grab onto.

 

 

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1 hour ago, DB said:

Is the length Vs diameter of these cartridges a consequence of the propellants characteristics?

In other words, do more modern formulations allow for wider cases?

I think it has more to do with what is considered acceptable chamber pressure in the "modern" times vs early 20th century.

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Harerra's something of a goofball, but this is the best explanation of the AK's derivation from the M1 Garand that I've seen, PLUS a nice homage to Hugo Schmeisser:

 

Edited by shep854
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I am really struggling with this one.

I mean, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with it, except there is absolutely no reason for it to exist. Just use a standard .45, there can't possibly have been enough Webley auto pistols around to make it impossible to just replace them all.

 

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.455 Webley Auto was already in the system for Webley Scott automatic pistols.

 

Edit:  If you mean why develop .455 Auto in the first place instead of just adopting .45ACP for the British pistols, it seems they were parallel developments so the Colt round wasn't already available.

Edited by R011
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Russian expert rags on Chinese AKs.  A bit surprising, since they have a very good reputation here in the US.  I'm waiting to see if/where I.O. and Century AKs fall on his list...those should be fun.

 

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Yes, some of the US made one made to list.

IIRC list goes like - 5 - China, 4 - Iraq, 3 - US, 2 - Ethiopia, 1 - Pakistan (Dara)

 

Reason for good reputation in US was that they had better QC for those exported to US. Chinese can make good things if they care. They don't care about quality of AKs they export to Africa.

Edited by bojan
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On 10/28/2020 at 5:04 AM, R011 said:

.455 Webley Auto was already in the system for Webley Scott automatic pistols.

 

Edit:  If you mean why develop .455 Auto in the first place instead of just adopting .45ACP for the British pistols, it seems they were parallel developments so the Colt round wasn't already available.

Ian mentions that standard 1911s were being bought by the UK already, so it doesn't make sense to me to have them develop the new calibre version. Just add standard issue ones, restrict the .455 Webley Auto to a smaller set of units and let it die on the vine.

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On 10/29/2020 at 8:41 PM, DB said:

Ian mentions that standard 1911s were being bought by the UK already, so it doesn't make sense to me to have them develop the new calibre version. Just add standard issue ones, restrict the .455 Webley Auto to a smaller set of units and let it die on the vine.

The .45 ACP M1911s were bought after the .455 ones had been developed and issued.  By that point in the war, the British forces were just buying as many pistols as they could get. Many .45 ACP M1911 seem to have been private purchase weapons

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  • 2 weeks later...

He overhypes it, it had a serious teething problems, in the early 1939. demonstration* to Yugoslav delegation** it jammed constantly and cases raptured and got stuck in the chamber half-way extracted, indication that extraction was premature. It was blamed on the "poor quality ammunition", but as with SVT-38/40, early M16 and many more there is a definity amount of blame that can be placed on poor quality ammunition before you have to start questioning rifle.

*Their SMG also sucked. Only demonstrated weapons that worked well were wz.28 (BAR) and wz.30 (M1917).

**That a country desperate for more automatic weapons rejected proposal of the cheap technology transfer is telling a lot.

Edited by bojan
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1 hour ago, Simon Tan said:

It's always the same. Standards. 

Wait to see next instalments, it will make those look like a dream guns :D

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9 minutes ago, bojan said:

He overhypes it, it had a serious teething problems, in the early 1939. demonstration* to Yugoslav delegation** it jammed constantly and cases raptured and got stuck in the chamber half-way extracted, indication that extraction was premature. It was blamed on the "poor quality ammunition", but as with SVT-38/40, early M16 and many more there is a definity amount of blame that can be placed on poor quality ammunition before you have to start questioning rifle.

*Their SMG also sucked. Only demonstrated weapons that worked well were wz.28 (BAR) and wz.30 (M1917).

**That a country desperate for more automatic weapons rejected proposal of the cheap technology transfer is telling a lot.

That could explain the bit about the gas adjustment screw.

Thanks for this kind of information you always seem to have at your fingertips, Bojan!

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A weapon not tested on poor quality ammo before demo is a marketing fail.  The point of failure is the spring, which is too damn small to do the work asked of it.

Edited by Simon Tan
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On 11/12/2020 at 12:28 PM, bojan said:

Second part of "how to fuck up AK" is up:

 

Cool! The next one should be about the American grena--er, rifles. 😛

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12 hours ago, Simon Tan said:

Seriously garbage grade SMG for 1938/9.

Yeah, they tried to copy and simplify Erma, but almost everything went wrong and final weapon was way too complicated and expensive to produce with iffy reliability.

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15 hours ago, Simon Tan said:

A weapon not tested on poor quality ammo before demo is a marketing fail.  The point of failure is the spring, which is too damn small to do the work asked of it.

To be fair, when it was demoed it was still undergoing development and demonstration was organized by Polish military.

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