Firearms of note and ridicule

[rmgill]

 

[shep854]

Is the BCM better? Yes.

Worth the extra scratch? Individual choice.
I'm satisfied with my S&W...

 

[Markus Becker]

Regardless of the ammo both hit a target smaller than a human head at 100 yards.   First world problems. 

[shep854]

33 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

Regardless of the ammo both hit a target smaller than a human head at 100 yards.   First world problems. 

Also known as gun-snobbery...   The number of people who can actually shoot sub-moa, not to mention 2-3 is not large.

[On the way]

On 12/15/2020 at 3:49 AM, Simon Tan said:

ARs were out.....pups were in...and Malaysia had just ordered the AUG.... All of which are now in storage and in various states of disrepair. The domestic production was of course a fiasco of which I had a front row seat.

I cannot believe that nobody in CIS did not understand the work they were doing. The 'white horses' of course did not as it was beneath them to get grease on their fingers.

Its all illogical. Its just projects for the sake of projects and to grease the palm of suppliers and to make a few retired Scholar Colonels and scholar Generals look good. The SAF, having never fought a full scale war in over 50 years have had the following as standard issue: 1) FN FAL 2) AR-15 3) SAR 80 4) M-16S1 5) SAR-21. In the same time period, the Russian army has one standard issue i.e AK-47 and US has had one standard issue, the M-16 and its derivatives like the M4. The morons couldn't think for themselves. I am sure the Israelis bend their ears towards a bullpup. BUt not just any bullpup, it has to be one of their own design. LOL. If they wanted a bullpup, they should have just bought the AUG design and build it under license. Its lighter then the SAR-21. I have fired both and I would take the AUG over the SAR any day.

[bojan]

PS. Are there any fundamental problems with SAR-21 and what is your experience with Ultimax?

Regarding changing weapons, Soviets had AK/AKS, improved AKM/AKMS, AK-74/AK-74S, AK-74M. US had M14, M16, M16A1, M16A2, M4(A whatever is in use ATM). Yes, they have benefited from a common platform, but they were changing versions a lot.

At least you were not introducing SKS in the 1960s as the interim weapon than took more than 20 years to finally replace it.

[Ivanhoe]

On 12/16/2020 at 5:03 PM, shep854 said:

Also known as gun-snobbery...   The number of people who can actually shoot sub-moa, not to mention 2-3 is not large.

I saw a neat phrase on one of the boards to the effect that most guys who were complaining about not getting sub-MOA accuracy from an OEM rifle had 5 MOA trigger fingers.

 

[Adam Peter]

 

[shep854]

8 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

I saw a neat phrase on one of the boards to the effect that most guys who were complaining about not getting sub-MOA accuracy from an OEM rifle had 5 MOA trigger fingers.

 

 You can't buy accuracy.

[Markus Becker]

18 hours ago, bojan said:

At least you were not introducing SKS in the 1960s as the interim weapon than took more than 20 years to finally replace it.

Who did that? 

[On the way]

19 hours ago, bojan said:

PS. Are there any fundamental problems with SAR-21 and what is your experience with Ultimax?

Regarding changing weapons, Soviets had AK/AKS, improved AKM/AKMS, AK-74/AK-74S, AK-74M. US had M14, M16, M16A1, M16A2, M4(A whatever is in use ATM). Yes, they have benefited from a common platform, but they were changing versions a lot.

At least you were not introducing SKS in the 1960s as the interim weapon than took more than 20 years to finally replace it.

My main concerns with the SAR-21 were:

1) build in integrated scope of only 1.5X. I don't even know why they put in only 1.5X, its only slightly better then open iron sights. Trilux scopes are 4X as used by the US military and the Canadian army C79 scopes are 3.4X. No picatinney rail option available at that time.

2) Build in laser powered by a AA battery, hard to find AA batteries out in the field if u ever get into a shooting war.

3) Heavier and not well balance as the M16

4) The trigger pull was slush, although I understand they have improved that.

Ultimax:

I am familiar with the initial production models, which was many moons ago. I hear they have made improvements to later batches. I liked the Ultimax, it was controllable, easy to handle, put out a high volume of fire, much lighter then the GPMG. However, we were issued with the 100 round drum mags and hardly ever fired it with the 30 round Stanag mags. That 100 round mag jammed constantly, I don't think u could get off more then 30 rounds before it jammed. And earlier model springs on the Ultimax was not durable either.

 

[bojan]

4 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

Who did that? 

Yugoslavia.

Due the delays in adopting automatic rifle (instead in 1964. production only started in 1970, and did not really wind up until 1973.), M59/66 SKS was adopted as an interim measure, as machinery was already there and in low-rate use (Original SKS copy, M59 was produced in the large troop trials amounts). Reason that older version, M59 was not produced in larger amounts was that it was already considered "technically and morally obsolete concept"...

It took all up the Yugoslav wars to replace those in the first-line units and until late 1990s. for the reserves.

Yugoslav automatic rifle story was a contrast between high hopes and large disappointments.

[Markus Becker]

30 minutes ago, bojan said:

Due the delays in adopting automatic rifle (instead in 1964. production only started in 1970, and did not really wind up until 1973.),

Right, there was that falling out between Tito and Stain. No more technical data packages for the independent minded comrades. 

So, you started AK production in 70 and it took you the next 20 years to rearm? 

[bojan]

It is very complicated, this is bare bones story with a minimum of side-details:

Basically, Yugoslavia wanted two thinkgs after WW2

- semi-auto rifle and SMG since for infantry (based on both German and Soviet WW2 experience) and "improved SMG" for a paratroopers (StG-44 was called "improved SMG" or just SMG until 1960s).

But hard reality was that there was a great lack of rifles and M48 Mauser was ordered in production as only realistic thing ATM and paras got StG-44 acquired from Czechoslovakia and France.. There was some tinkering with G/K43 semi-auto, but that one was... disapointing to say at least.

Then solution was found, get cheap M1 Garands and modify them to 7.9x57mm with a 20-round box mag. This was almost adopted as M57. But relations with SSSR are normalized and to sweeten the deal Khrushchevw threw in whole SKS production line. So now we have SKS production line that we don't really want or need, since SKS is considered to be obsolete "due the lack of detachable, at least 20-round magazine".

Meanwhile we acquired AK (sometimes between 1953. and 1956.), and this was seen as a trend to move toward single "improved SMG"/automatic rifle for everyone, so semi-autos suddenly became irrelevant. So large trials were held in 1961-62 with G3, AR-10, FAL, AK and vz.58 participating. In the end AK was chosen for a production (due the problem with acquiring AR-10 production equipment and unspecified problems with G3 license). But there is no license for AK, so Zastava basically made a bootleg copy of it. They also tried own ideas, got some ideas from a parallel paratrooper program (that crashed and burned in the end, after disastrous showing of the main contender, Stoner 63 series), resulting in M64 series trial rifles. Those had own issues that were not solved until simplified version was finally adopted as M70. There was also a problem that a whole new machine park had to be acquired (mostly from Germany and US ironically...) as previous one was not suitable.

Meanwhile army was stuck with M48 Mausers and SMGs, and as an "temporary measure" it was decided to produce limited amount of modified SKS (M59/66). Production started in 1967. Unlike M70 production this one picked immediately and large numbers were produced in first 5 years.

So, army now has large number of M59/66, with M70 ariving, replacing first SMGs., and from 1981. also starting to replace M59/66s, first in the infantry units. Rearmament of the active frontline units is done by early 1991.

[Markus Becker]

Bolt guns as main infantry rifles in the late 60s. Who would have thought. Well, you almost certainly came out of the war in a shape much worse than most and the split with the USSR prevented early adoption of SKS like usual in the East. 

[bojan]

Well, main rifle section's weapon was LMG. 1962. rifle section had 5 x SMG, 1 x LMG and 4 x rifle. Two rifles were "secondary roles", LMG assistant and Grenadier (all rifles had rifle-grenade attachment, but primary role of Grenadier was lobbing RGs, not taking potshots with rifle) and two remaining were supposed to go to the best shots in the section, idea being more use as a DMRs than as a classical rifles. LMG was main firepower of the section, SMGs were "up close and personal" defense/assault, riflemen were there mostly to carry more MG ammo and rifle-grenades.

Company also had very heavy org, with 6 x MG, 12 x ATW, 2 x RCL and 2 x 82mm mortar, so lack of semi-auto rifle, while bad was not that of the issue in great scheme of things.

Edited December 20, 2020 by bojan

[shep854]

On 12/18/2020 at 7:29 AM, Ivanhoe said:

I saw a neat phrase on one of the boards to the effect that most guys who were complaining about not getting sub-MOA accuracy from an OEM rifle had 5 MOA trigger fingers.

 

[Markus Becker]

ATW = anti tank ...? 

And how inferior is an SKS compared to a G3? The latter has DBM with twice as many rounds but it's also heavier and not chambered for an intermediary round. 

[bojan]

3 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

ATW = anti tank ...? 

And how inferior is an SKS compared to a G3? The latter has DBM with twice as many rounds but it's also heavier and not chambered for an intermediary round. 

ATW = anti-tank weapon. RB 44mm M57. 

Long(er) story about SKS and trials:

SKS was considered obsolete concept due the no detachable magazine. It was also considered that it can only replace M48s, not SMGs, due the lack of automatic fire. There was attempt to modernize it with experimental M59/61, having detachable (AK) magazine and being select fire and it was trialed with other rifles* in 1961-63 trials. But it was ditched, just as were M14 and BM59 for "being obsolete concept of the infantry rifle".

*Of those, G3, AR-10, AK and vz.58 were chambered in 7.62x39mm, FAL was in original 7.62x51mm chambering due the FN failing to deliver rifles in 7.62x39mm due the tight schedule. First round was AR-10, AK, vz.58, M59/61, M14, BM-59, with last 3 being quickly ditched as "obsolete concept". All other were considered "fit for service", AR-10 being prefered. But problem was with acquiring machinery for AR-10 production, since ATM it was a high tech airo-space thing and a no-no for export to a communist country. Studies were made if it would be possible to produce it at a regular equipment, but it was considered non-effective, so AR-10 was ditched.

2nd round had G, AK, vz.58 and FAL, with FAL failing utterly, being only rifle to get "unfit for service" evaluation. G3 was preferred, but there were unspecified licensing problems with it and so it was not adopted.

Then there was a consideration about runner-ups, AK and vz.58. A lot of people prefered vz.58, but Zastava was already tinkering with AK for a while so it was decided to go with modified AK route. This lead to M64 series rifles, which had problems, and then finally M70 series.

Meanwhile, in late 1967. somewhere from "Africa" (I suspect it was actually Israel post 6-day war, or alternatively Egypt, but Israel is more likely for a number of reasons...) Yugoslavia acquired certain amount of AKM/AKMS (and gave them to a paratroopers to replace StG44s*) to study stamed examples of AK (milled one was seen as a temporary thing). This resulted to a production finally switching to stamped M70 series in second half of the '70s.

*Again, as a temporary thing until paras adopt final rifle they wanted, which was 5.56mm weapon. But those trials ended in disaster as Stoner 63* sent suffered from so many manufacturing defects that sabotage was actually considered. In the end someone decided that paras don't have to be special snowflakes and that M70 series will be good enough for them.

*Other contenders were M16A1 and XM-177. M16A1 was not liked due the lack of folding or collapsible stock.

[Markus Becker]

"But problem was with acquiring machinery for AR-10 production, since ATM it was a high tech airo-space thing and a no-no for export to a communist country."

What a bloody shame. Yugoslavia introducing ARs in an intermediary caliber well before the USA would have been hilarious among other things. 😂

ATM means something like aluminum tooling and machinery I presume given the context. 

[bojan]

25 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

What a bloody shame. Yugoslavia introducing ARs in an intermediary caliber well before the USA would have been hilarious among other things. 😂

What could have been (this one is from finish trials, but Yugoslav examples were same):

Quote

...means something like aluminum tooling and machinery I presume given the context. 

Yes. In the '50s that was top shelf aero stuff.

Edited December 20, 2020 by bojan

[BansheeOne]

Quote

Paratrooper’s M249S is now available on the civilian market

FN’s latest addition to the Military Collector Series is about as close as it gets for a civilian to own the real thing.

The collapsible stocked M249S Para is the civilian version of the Paratrooper model of the popular FN SAW used by airborne forces.

John Keppeler, FN America’s senior vice president of sales and marketing, discusses the changes made for the civilian market, “You’ll notice only two major differences between the semi- and full-auto versions – the barrel length and reconfigured internal components to change the rifle’s operation from open-bolt to closed-bolt.”

The Para version of the M249S still weighs around 17 lbs like the fixed stock model, but it features a 16.1″ barrel instead of the 18.5″ on the standard M249S.

With an MSRP sitting just under $8.8k, you’d better be a big fan before you add this piece of steel to your collection.

[...]

https://americangg.net/3am-paratroopers-m249s/?fbclid=IwAR1pvWEo5f-4zfD103x0Kt9yh5ow8X9gkDSGkDWSQ4l-poYK9wq2XNThsf4

[bojan]

Semi-auto LMG is like decaf coffee or beer w/o alcohol.

[Simon Tan]

I don't mind semi-auto PKM. 

[Markus Becker]

4 hours ago, bojan said:

Semi-auto LMG is like decaf coffee or beer w/o alcohol.

It's the next best to the real thing a collector can get. That being said, I'd rather save my money for a reproduction FG 42.