T-62's in GSFG

[298tyr]

Something set me off wondering when the last T-62's were removed from Germany and who / what units of GSFG were the last users ?

 

Don't think any were listed in the CFE figures for 1988 that I can recall - did they linger in Independent Tank Regiments / Battalions until the mid / late 80's ?

 

Anyone have any info ?.

 

Niall

[Mike Steele]

Im sure USMLM reports refer to them in Germany circa 1985 (bdds) but I must admit It goes a bit blank from that point on.

 

Ill have a look through my usmlm notes.

 

You have USMLM notes?

[298tyr]

You have USMLM notes?

 

Stuart will be referring to the USMLM Annual Unit Histories / Reports - which are available online. I have them also but haven't looked through them for the last mention of T-62's. By the 80's the Missions were far more interested in T-64 and T-80's.

 

Niall

[Mike Steele]

Stuart will be referring to the USMLM Annual Unit Histories / Reports - which are available online. I have them also but haven't looked through them for the last mention of T-62's. By the 80's the Missions were far more interested in T-64 and T-80's.

 

Niall

 

Learn something new every day.

[Tazaaron]

Might have to look back threw my stuff but by 81 i believe only the independent tank regs. had T-62s and these were swapped out by 86 for T-64s. The only other units would have been some training divisions that would still have some and 0 T-62s by the time of CFE.

 

Looked threw my info on the independent regs and T-62s were swapped out by 1982 for T-64s

Edited August 11, 2011 by Tazaaron

[298tyr]

Might have to look back threw my stuff but by 81 i believe only the independent tank regs. had T-62s and these were swapped out by 86 for T-64s. The only other units would have been some training divisions that would still have some and 0 T-62s by the time of CFE.

 

Looked threw my info on the independent regs and T-62s were swapped out by 1982 for T-64s

 

Tazaaron - that's pretty much spot on the info I needed - many thanks !

 

I don't suppose your info goes as far as identifying which units were the last T-62 operators (I know you said the Independent Tank Regiments - maybe the Ind Battalions as well ?).

 

I presume these would have been late model T-62 with LRF etc ?

 

Niall

[jakec]

I don't think they were all gone until around 1985. Re-equipment with T64A/B did not meet the starry eyed dreams of Kremlin planners in the 1970s in terms of speed.

[298tyr]

Yeah, I summarised observations according to year. I really must make sure thats permamently hosted somewhere.

 

In the interim, the actual reports are here.

http://www.history.hqusareur.army.mil/uslmannual.htm

 

Weighty download, but some of the observations and photographs are very interesting indeed.

 

Looks like they are in severe retrograde from 1983.

July 1982

2nd-3rd Week July

Disruptively painted T62 in use by 7 Guards Tank Division, noted during

exercise Main Thrust 82. Disruptive painting before had only been seen upon

communications and control vehicles, self propelled artillery and SSM. (This

appears to be similar to that painted to a T62 BDD in Steve Zaloga Tank war,

Central Front. It is impossible to tell from the photograph whether these are

BDD however).

22nd June 1983

T62s observed by USMLM in Unknown Independent Tank regiment attached to

2nd Guards Tank Army.

September 1984

T-80 was being introduced into 1GTA, and 8 GTA, and although a complete

battalion complement had not been observed they appeared to he replacing the

T-62 on a one for one basis. (according to American members of Tanknet,

many motor rifle regiments in this area were equipped with T62 around this

period)

 

December 1985

T80, being shipped to 8th Guards Army and 1st Guards Tank Army.

Report notes that all 7 divisions in GSFGs 2 southern armies have been

equipped with this tank. 17 of 28 manoeuvre regiments in these divisions have

the tank, whilst 5 of the 17 mount reactive armour. Note that since first sighted

in March 1983, at least 1200 have been introduced as replacements for T62.

 

Thats the main highlight from my notes in that period. Doesnt seem to mention any post 1985. I shall have to look and see if there have been any other reports declassified. Suffice to say independent tank regiments, and motor rifle regiments would be the place to look.

 

I would assume the Brixmis ones would start being declassified soon for the 1980s?

 

Stuart - now you're just making me feel lazy for not digging out my copies !!

 

If only the Brixmis stuff was available to download - especially the photographic records !

 

Have been trying to find photo's of the vehicles belong to 6th Guards Ind MR Bde in Berlin but apart from the odd one on a Russian website of BMP-1's I haven't turned up any colour shoots at all of the tanks.

Edited August 11, 2011 by 298tyr

[X-Files]

In the interim, the actual reports are here.

http://www.history.hqusareur.army.mil/uslmannual.htm

 

 

Good find, thanks for sharing.

[Tazaaron]

1983

05/04/1983: T-80 identified

28/04/1983: T-80 identified

Sanddune project identifies Object 219

 

1984

T-80 operational with 9 TD and 11 GTD. Observed with 27 GMRD

22/02/1984: T-80 seen with 23 TR/9 TD

At this time the T-64B is deployed with 1 company in each T-64A battalion

sep-84: 100 T-80s with 9 TD

07/11/1984: Object 219B(or R?) is identified in a training panel together with 434 and 447.

T-64 in 2 GTA, 3 SA, 20 GA; T-80 in 1GTA and 8 GA replacing T-62

Dec-84: T-80 with 10 GTD/3 SA

 

1985

T-80 identified with every division in the 1GTA and 8 GA

Reactive armor present in T-80 and T-64B

T-80 with 7 divisions in 1 GTA and 8 GA, 17 out of 28 regiments, 5 with ERA (at least 1,200 tanks)

 

1986

 

nothing worthwile.

 

1988

T-80 updating in 3 SA & 2 GT

 

 

Heres some T-80 stuff, ive got the flu right now and feel like shit so having trouble looking but i know i have actual dates that some of the Independent tank regiments switched from t-62 to t-64 from a Russian website that has these tankers posting alot of info on these regiments. http://ryadovoy.ru/forum/index.php?topic=185

 

According to this it definitely wasnt before 84, i look some more but i know there was 0 at CFE

 

 

Heres the CFE tankpark numbers

 

 

And some version info for Oct 90:

 

In October 1990, in connection with the signing of the Agreement on Restrictions on Conventional Arms in Europe, the Soviet Union admitted its possession of its European territory and in the databases deployed on the territory of former Warsaw Pact countries more than 60 thousand. czolgów. tanks.

 

In this number:

 

- 17 176 szt. stanowily czolgi T-80 w nastepujacych wersjach: - 17 176 pieces were T-80 tanks in the following versions:

 

T-80 (305 szt.), T-80 (305 items)

 

T-80B (12 806 szt.), T-80B (12 806 pcs)

 

T-80BK (826 szt.), T-80BK (826 pcs)

 

T-80BW (2 326 szt.), T-80BW (2 326 pcs)

 

T-80BWK (90 szt.) T-80BWK (90 pcs)

 

T-80U (823 szt.), T-80U (823 pcs)

 

- 14 023 szt. stanowily czolgi T-72 w nastepujacych wersjach: - 14 023 pieces were T-72 tanks in the following versions:

 

T-72 (3 855 szt.), T-72 (3 855 pcs)

 

T-72K (179 szt.), T-72K (179 pcs)

 

T-72A (2 501 szt.), T-72A (2 501 pcs)

 

T-72AK (124 szt.), T-72AK (124 pcs)

 

T-72B (3 360 szt.), T-72B (3 360 pcs)

 

T-72BK (119 szt.), T-72BK (119 pcs)

 

T-72B1 (3 657 szt.), T-72B1 (3 657 pcs)

 

T-72B1K (228 szt.), T-72B1K (228 pcs)

 

- 12 581 szt. stanowily czolgi T-64 w nastepujacych wersjach: - 12 581 pieces were T-64 tanks in the following versions:

 

T-64 (1 730 szt.), T-64 (1 730 pcs)

 

T-64A (3 881 szt.), T-64A (3 881 pcs)

 

T-64AK (784 szt.), T-64AK (784 pcs)

 

T-64B (4 391 szt.), T-64B (4 391 pcs)

 

T-64BU (475 szt.), T-64BU (475 pcs)

 

T-64B1 (1 242 szt.), T-64B1 (1 242 pcs)

 

T-64B1K (57 szt.), T-64B1K (57 pcs)

 

T-64BWK21 szt.), T-64BWK21 pcs)

 

- 5 190 szt. stanowily czolgi T-62 w nastepujacych wersjach: - 5 190 pieces were T-62 tanks in the following versions:

 

T-62 (3 919 szt.), T-62 (3 919 pcs)

 

T-62K (270 szt.), T-62K (270 pcs)

 

T-62M (477 szt.), T-62M (477 pcs)

 

T-62MK (6 szt.), T-62MK (6 pcs)

 

T-62M1 (180 szt.), T-62M1 (180 pcs)

 

- 3 683 szt. stanowily czolgi T-54 w nastepujacych wersjach: - 3 683 items were T-54 tanks in the following versions:

 

T-54 (523 szt.), T-54 (523 items)

 

T-54K (2 szt.), T-54K (2 pcs)

 

T-54W (1 771 szt.), T-54W (1 771 pcs)

 

T-54WK (58 szt.), T-54WK (58 pcs)

 

T-54M (1 275 szt.), T-54M (1 275 pcs)

 

T-54MK (54 szt.), T-54MK (54 pcs)

 

- 7 508 szt. stanowily czolgi T-55 w nastepujacych wersjach: - 7 508 pieces were T-55 tanks in the following versions:

 

T-55 (1 167 szt.), T-55 (1 167 pcs)

 

T-55K (153 szt.), T-55K (153 pcs)

 

T-55A (2 231 szt.), T-55A (2 231 pcs)

 

T-55AD (650 szt.), T-55AD (650 pcs)

 

T-55AK (180 szt.), T-55AK (180 pcs)

 

T-55AM (260 szt.), T-55AM (260 pcs)

 

T-55AMD (63 szt.), T-55AMD (63 pcs)

 

T-55AMK (3 szt.), T-55AMK (3 pcs)

 

T-55M (2 762 szt.), T-55M (2 762 pcs)

 

T-55MK (33 szt.), T-55MK (33 pcs)

 

T-55MUK (6 szt.), T-55MUK (6 pcs)

 

- 1 372 szt. stanowily czolgi PT-76. - 1 372 pieces were PT-76 tanks.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Tazaaron

[298tyr]

That's still a lot of T-62's !

 

Stuart - interesting point about the BDD - I have yet to see a picture of a T-62 with this in GSFG / WGF. I know they had the T-62M with the laser rangefinder but would be interested to see if they had the BDD armour in Germany.

Niall

[demosthenes]

Zaloga cites 785 T-62Ms authorized for the 1981-1985 five year plan, however Hark also gives a breakdown:

 

1981 - 10

1982 - 25

1983 - 50

1984 - 100

1985 - 600

 

Since most of the tanks were rebuilt in the last year, I'd wager it would be at least 1986 before you see all of them in fully functional units.

[PCallahan]

Those numbers for T-80s seem awfully high -- while I don't remember the numbers exactly, I thought there would have been something less than 5,000 T-80s total by October 1990, not more than 17,000...

 

Pat