F-35 for India?

[Dawes]

Is this just LockMart grasping at straws or would India seriously consider adding the F-35 to it's shortlist? IOC would appear to be much further away than would be the case with Typhoon or Rafale.:

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-20/lockheed-may-pitch-f-35-to-rejoin-11-billion-india-jet-contest.html

[Cookie Monster]

Is this just LockMart grasping at straws or would India seriously consider adding the F-35 to it's shortlist? IOC would appear to be much further away than would be the case with Typhoon or Rafale.:

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-20/lockheed-may-pitch-f-35-to-rejoin-11-billion-india-jet-contest.html

 

Unless USA and Lockheed agrees to share the source code with IAF and forgoes CISMOA, this has a snowball's chance in hell of happening. India is pursuing its AMCA program which is supposedly to compete directly with F-35.

[Archie Pellagio]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

About as likely as F22 sales to India...

[DavT]

LM has to know that there's no way this would fly, why are they even bothering talking about it?

 

And even if there were no issues with exporting the tech, the MCRA competition is too far along to be accepting new tenders. All that's gonna happen is that Indian aerospace will take the opportunity to make LM look like a bunch of bumblers who can't read RFP and thinks it's still 2008 (actually, that might explain why the F-35 is behind schedule).

Edited June 20, 2011 by DavT

[Ssnake]

WE ARE LOCKMART. YOU WILL SUBMIT TO OUR PROPOSAL. OBEY YOUR MASTER. NOW ASSIMILATING SYSTEM. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. WE DECIDE WHAT REALITY IS. WE ARE LOCKMART.

[CaptLuke]

LM has to perpetuate the fantasy that there will be a huge production run of F35s that will keep costs down. Like any government project, it will not matter that this will be false and costs will explode, it will only matter that the lies keep the thing going till it is too big to fail (see Rail, High Speed, California).

[Special-K]

So, hypothetically speaking, would the F-35 meet India's stated needs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

-K

[pikachu]

So, hypothetically speaking, would the F-35 meet India's stated needs?

 

 

-K

 

It's what India originally wanted the US/LM to offer. However, it was unrealistic from the start due to India's own price cap for MRCA. Of course, back when the contest started, the GAO report hadn't been published yet so not many people outside the US (or inside, for that matter) were aware of exactly how expensive the F-35 was going to be.

[Cookie Monster]

So, hypothetically speaking, would the F-35 meet India's stated needs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

-K

 

Sure the technical needs of IAF but not the strategic needs of India as a whole. There would be no ToT transfer, no source code sharing, and there would be a permanent US electronic monitoring presence in IAF's potent strike aircraft that basically makes IAF subservient to US's will. India would have no independent policy to follow through. These considerations would outweigh the technical needs of IAF.

[LeoTanker]

Cant LM make Iraq order a few F-35s instead? That'd lower the theoretical average/marginal production cost somewhat at least.

[Jeff]

Russian rubbish? India reportedly disappointed with stealth fighters from Moscow

By Maxim Lott

Published January 24, 2014

FoxNews.com

 

Is the Russian arms industry getting soft?

 

Despite initial high expectations, the Indian Air Force appears to be souring on a joint development deal with Russia for a new fifth-generation fighter jet, according to the Business Standard, a major Indian business publication. The Russian prototype is "unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered,” said Indian Air Force Deputy Air Marshall S Sukumar at a Jan. 15 meeting, according to minutes obtained by the Business Standard.

 

That contrasts sharply with high hopes voiced by the Indian government when the joint project, to which the Indian government has contributed $6 billion, began.

 

“[The new plane] will have advanced features such as stealth, supercruise, ultra-maneuvrability, highly integrated avionics suite, enhanced situational awareness, internal carriage of weapons and Network Centric Warfare capabilities,” the Indian government said in a December 2010 press release. Those are all hallmarks of “fifth generation” aircraft.

 

The Indian Air Force did not respond to a request for comment.

 

But it is hardly surprising that the invisible-to-radar Russian fighter planes don't quite live up to the billing, according to defense experts reached by FoxNews.com.

 

“The Russians are certainly not up to speed in avionics,” Robbin Laird, who has served as a consultant to the Marine Corps and Air Force and started the website Second Line of Defense, told FoxNews.com. “For them to pull off a stealth airframe, and for it to actually be stealthy, the engine technology has to be very good. Americans have done it with the F-22 and F-35. But it’s not easy to do. No one has done it but ourselves.”

 

India is the largest arms importer in world, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, and its military import large amounts from both Russia and western countries.

 

“The Indians for a long time have split their fighter industry between western work and Russian work,” Laird said.

 

“Clearly they want to go more Western because they recognize that the Russian stuff just isn't up to the western standards. You only have so much money to go around, and like everybody else they've got financial pressures,” he added.

 

Other security experts said that India has a history of incompetence when it comes to military procurement, and so it did not necessarily reflect badly on Russia.

 

“India has had so many problems absorbing modern equipment and supporting it that it’s difficult to know whether it says anything about the Russian systems at all,” Anthony Cordesman, who has served as a consultant for the State and Defense departments and who holds the Burke Chair in Strategy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told FoxNews.com.

 

Laird said that the Indians may be souring on the Russian deal in part to save funds so they can build more French-designed Dassault Rafale fighter jets, which can be built relatively quickly, unlike the still-to-be-designed “fifth-generation” planes under development with the Russians.

 

“The Rafale is a very nice aircraft, and they'll look at all the stuff the French are putting on that aircraft, and they'll look at the Russian stuff and say, why am I going down that path? Do I trust the Russians really are going to reach to the standards we set?”

 

Laird said that India would be best off purchasing the already-developed fifth-generation Lockheed Martin F-35 – but that the United States government had not given permission for such a sale, even though Indian officials had asked several times to be able to consider the plane.

 

“If they get a chance to really look at the F35, they would want it," Laird said. "The Indians have requested 3 times to talk to people about the F-35B, which is the true revolutionary aircraft -- and the administration never answered the mail, they've blown them off, it's typical of the Obama administration. We love our allies except if you want anything.”

 

He added that India may in fact not be at the level where it should be trusted with F-35s, however, so the administration would be right to turn them down. But he argued that the F-35 is ahead of what Russia has.

 

“The Russians are good aircraft designers, and they know how to build an agile aircraft, and [the new plane they are working on] is a step forward the path of more agility and flexibility, but the problem is -- it's not all about the frame, it's about what your put in it. The F35 can see around itself, 360 degrees, can see a missile take off 820 miles away, it has a radar that's extraordinary, and the systems are integrated. The Russians I think are nowhere near that at this point.”

 

Laird admitted that there was a kind of “ho-hum” aspect to those types of features, but said that the information they provide to pilots and commanders would pay off in a combat situation.

 

Cordesman also said that he was unsurprised by the Indian complaints, given what he knew about Russian air capabilities.

 

“They’re very good at building airplanes,” Cordesman said. “The problem that Russia, since the collapse of the former Soviet Union, has been putting out the military equivalent of show cars. They look good, but it isn’t always clear how practical they are and how many of the specifications they can actually meet.”

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/01/24/russian-rubbish-india-reportedly-disappointed-with-stealth-fighters-from-moscow/?intcmp=latestnews

[tankerwanabe]

I guess the plasma stealth thing didn't work out. The Russians have a history of making wild technological claims that don't work out in reality.

 

Btw, it's kind of odd that the Indian aerospace industry is so inadequate considering how much hardware they've imported over the years.

[Mr King]

I guess the plasma stealth thing didn't work out. The Russians have a history of making wild technological claims that don't work out in reality.

 

Btw, it's kind of odd that the Indian aerospace industry is so inadequate considering how much hardware they've imported over the years.

 

 

I dont really read much else but Tanknet these days, but from my limited travels to other military related forums I have noticed the "ZOMG PLASMA STEALTH ALL YOUR BASE BELONG TO US" arguments from the fan boys have all but disappeared with the unveiling of the PAK-FA prototype.

[Yama]

Article's points are sort of bizarre since almost all 'issues' are something Indians have known well beforehand "It's unreliable" - duh, it's in prototype phase. "Engines and radar don't give promised performance" - well yes, engines are interim model, final engine is in development. Ditto for radar.

It is of course possible (in the case of engine, quite probable) that the development won't proceed as swiftly as hoped and there will be delays getting the aircraft in service in desired configuration, however these are all issues which Indians were well aware of when signing the contract.

 

Real problem with FGFA is that it is meant to be joint project (like previously successful BrahMos), but Indians don't have much to contribute for 'jointness'. They don't have suitable engine, radar or weapons for the plane. HAL apparently has some expertise in composites which may or may not be useful in manufacturing phase, and Indians obviously can and mean to write much of their own software, and that's it. Russians are taking Indian money, calling all the shots and likely being characteristically secretive about everything about "joint" project.

 

I suspect much of the criticism is politically motivated: Indians have their own combat aircraft project, AMCA, meant to fly in 2020's, and FGFA competes with it from funding. With China already having several well advanced domestic fighting aircraft designs, India can't rely forever on foreign technology.

[crazyinsane105]

I suspect much of the criticism is politically motivated: Indians have their own combat aircraft project, AMCA, meant to fly in 2020's, and FGFA competes with it from funding. With China already having several well advanced domestic fighting aircraft designs, India can't rely forever on foreign technology.

 

India's LCA hasn't really been much of a success...if it was, there would be no reason the IAF would be replacing its aging aircraft with French Rafales, Sukhois, and upgraded Mirages. I have doubts the Indian aerospace industry will have the capability to assemble Rafales and build a brand new AMCA at the same time.

 

All in all, it's a logistical nightmare for the IAF. They have Sukhois, Mirages, Rafales, Mig-29s, LCA, Jaguars, Mig-21 Bisons....does adding in yet another aircraft even make sense?

[Josh]

 

I guess the plasma stealth thing didn't work out. The Russians have a history of making wild technological claims that don't work out in reality.

 

Btw, it's kind of odd that the Indian aerospace industry is so inadequate considering how much hardware they've imported over the years.

 

 

I dont really read much else but Tanknet these days, but from my limited travels to other military related forums I have noticed the "ZOMG PLASMA STEALTH ALL YOUR BASE BELONG TO US" arguments from the fan boys have all but disappeared with the unveiling of the PAK-FA prototype.

 

 

They finally have a piece of non-vaporware to trumpet.

[Josh]

 

I suspect much of the criticism is politically motivated: Indians have their own combat aircraft project, AMCA, meant to fly in 2020's, and FGFA competes with it from funding. With China already having several well advanced domestic fighting aircraft designs, India can't rely forever on foreign technology.

 

All in all, it's a logistical nightmare for the IAF. They have Sukhois, Mirages, Rafales, Mig-29s, LCA, Jaguars, Mig-21 Bisons....does adding in yet another aircraft even make sense?

 

 

It has long been Indian policy to source their a/c to multiple countries to assure no interruption of parts or service across the board. The US has pulled their support back in the past and the USSR/Russia just seems to provide bad service.

 

That said they seem to have taken this a little too far at this point. I don't understand how the PRC can be so adept at building a/c, at least copying existing designs (the 5th gen stuff the jurry is still out on in my opinion) and India can have so little ability in this area after decades of operating modern aircraft from at least three different countries.

[crazyinsane105]

 

 

I suspect much of the criticism is politically motivated: Indians have their own combat aircraft project, AMCA, meant to fly in 2020's, and FGFA competes with it from funding. With China already having several well advanced domestic fighting aircraft designs, India can't rely forever on foreign technology.

 

All in all, it's a logistical nightmare for the IAF. They have Sukhois, Mirages, Rafales, Mig-29s, LCA, Jaguars, Mig-21 Bisons....does adding in yet another aircraft even make sense?

 

That said they seem to have taken this a little too far at this point. I don't understand how the PRC can be so adept at building a/c, at least copying existing designs (the 5th gen stuff the jurry is still out on in my opinion) and India can have so little ability in this area after decades of operating modern aircraft from at least three different countries.

 

 

The answer to that is two fold...first, corruption. India's defense industry (especially their aeronautical and land systems divisions) are known to be notoriously corrupt and inefficient. The second reason is that in the past twenty or so years, India's best and brightest will often work for Western companies for much higher salaries than India's local industries can afford to pay.

 

It's not really an issue of unskilled labor...they have plenty of scientists and engineers, many of whom I've studied with here in the US and they are quite brilliant. The problems are always corruption and lack of attractiveness to defense jobs.

[swerve]

Indian military industries are mostly state bodies, & treated as if they're part of the civil service rather than corporations which happen to be owned by the government. There's little pressure for them to perform.

 

The buyers, meanwhile, have long had incentives to buy from abroad. They can extract bribes (not forthcoming from state-owned domestic industries, which don't have the cash), & even if honest, they get lots of freebies, such as trips abroad & being entertained by the customer. When you're paid by the Indian state, these things can be a big deal.

 

Private Indian firms have mostly been kept out of producing for the military, because the state owned industries have powerful lobbies & are able to influence policy makers.

[Yama]

India's LCA hasn't really been much of a success...if it was, there would be no reason the IAF would be replacing its aging aircraft with French Rafales, Sukhois, and upgraded Mirages. I have doubts the Indian aerospace industry will have the capability to assemble Rafales and build a brand new AMCA at the same time.

 

All in all, it's a logistical nightmare for the IAF. They have Sukhois, Mirages, Rafales, Mig-29s, LCA, Jaguars, Mig-21 Bisons....does adding in yet another aircraft even make sense?

LCA has been pretty much a flop so far however it is not connected to MRCA (Rafale) purchase, which is meant to replace MiG-27 and later Jaguar as medium strike/multirole fighters*. LCA by contrast is meant to replace MiG-21 as the light air superiority fighter. FGFA and AMCA seem to have some role overlap, true, but I suspect FGFA is bit of a backup in the case AMCA fails.

 

*if Indians acquire Rafale at all. After triumphantly announcing the winner, they seem to have fallen back to usual feet-dragging and complaining about cost.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Yama

[crazyinsane105]

Indian military industries are mostly state bodies, & treated as if they're part of the civil service rather than corporations which happen to be owned by the government. There's little pressure for them to perform.

 

 

You'd think they would have taken clues from the Soviet Union...one big reason the USSR was extremely successful in its military development was that within a certain company (for example...Sukhoi), that company had various design teams that were competing with one another. Once a successful design had been chosen, the teams who's designs were not accepted were instead placed in other areas of the company where they could help facilitate better production and quality control. All in all, the Soviets actually encouraged competition and there was a tremendous amount of pressure to perform well. Just taking a look at India's largest enemies, China and Pakistan...both have similar initiatives within their defense industries. I think with India, the prevailing attitude is 'oh we'll just buy it from somewhere else if it doesn't work out.' Pakistan doesn't really have that choice (too broke to finance most major weapon deals) and neither does China to an extent, so I believe motivation is also a factor.