Poland agrees to a permanent (US) Air Force base

[X-Files]

WARSAW, Poland — Poland and the United States have signed an agreement that will allow Air Force to station its troops and aircraft permanently in Poland. Poland's Defense Minister Bogdan Klich and U.S. Ambassador Lee Feinstein signed the agreement on Monday.

 

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/06/ap-poland-agrees-to-permanent-air-force-base-061311/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[Rod]

Puts them closer to the Middle East and Central Asia?

 

 

So they all but close RAF Fairford which they only recently refurbished, then open a new base in Poland. Can someone explain how that is supposed to make sense?

[swerve]

Well they already have that with Diego Garcia,

Diego Garcia isn't closer to the Middle East & Central Asia than current US bases in Europe. It's a long way from anywhere except Sri Lanka & India, & not terribly close to them.

 

From Sigonella, in Sicily (currently being used to bomb Libya) the flight distance to Abu Dhabi, Teheran, or Tashkent is less than from Diego Garcia to any of those places. To Kabul or Tashkent it's only very slightly less, but it's still less.

 

The advantages of Diego Garcia lie in its isolation (nobody can watch what you're doing there, no risk of terrorists, etc), & the lack of need for overflight rights to certain places.

[BansheeOne]

I'd guess it's simple fallout from the Missile Defense base negotiations. The Polish interest in that was always having a token for bilateral defense ties with the US beyond NATO. Since the original deal fell through, this is likely the compensation.

[swerve]

Poland may be closer, but its harder to believe Poland is a better base because of the overflight issues.

 

As I say, I find it a strange option.

Agreed. Poland is effectively landlocked, as you can't fly out of it, except over the Baltic, without overflying another country.

 

Unless the plan is to use it as a replacement for logistical bases in Germany, it doesn't make any sense, & the savings would have to be immense to outweigh the cost of developing it. The USA has a huge amount of infrastructure in Germany, including hospitals, schools, housing, etc. How many billions to replicate that?

 

I suspect Banshee is right.

[Dawes]

It's also a way to cement closer ties with Poland.

 

Whatever locale/host unit is chosen for the unit, I'm sure the local merchants are readying their price increases

Edited June 14, 2011 by Dawes

[Colin]

Slavic girls are hotter than english tarts....

Edited June 14, 2011 by Colin

[DB]

Slavic girls are hotter than enlish tarts....

 

Agreed, good analysis.

Eye Fang Yoo.

[rmgill]

Slavic girls are hotter than enlish tarts....

 

All that mixed heritage from the east. I know a Czech girl that has the nearest example of an epicanthic fold and high cheek bones I've ever seen in a European with no (recent) Asiatic heritage)

 

 

I just had an epiphany about canadian women. There was that big influx of Ukrainians about 80 years ago no(1)? That's the secret to Canadian women being hot on a better than average ratio...

 

 

 

1. One of my reenactor buddies who's former Can-Forces has a Ukrainian grandmother. Apparently there are little communities of Ukraine descendants spread around Canada that, based on some language by play between him and a Ukrainian lady friend of mine are more pure in Ukrainian tradition than is modern Ukrainian (much more polish and russian mixed in nowadays).

[X-Files]

So they all but close RAF Fairford which they only recently refurbished, then open a new base in Poland. Can someone explain how that is supposed to make sense?

 

1. Consider who you're asking that question about and then remember all those posts you've read on this grating site.

 

 

3. Answer is clear.

Edited June 14, 2011 by X-Files

[Ken Estes]

So they all but close RAF Fairford which they only recently refurbished, then open a new base in Poland. Can someone explain how that is supposed to make sense?

Well, it will not be a new base, nor a USAF base. If anything, it will be a tenant USAF facility on board a Polish air base that is commanded by a Polish AF officer.

 

The days of US extraterritoriality in NATO and the third world ended in the 1980s, a decade earlier in most parts of NATO/Olde Yurrop.

[Simon Tan]

A tangible US permanent presence in Poland is regarded by many Poles in the same light as Us forces in Korea, a visible guarantee against their traditional predators to the east and west. The southern and northern predators no longer exist.

[Marek Tucan]

A tangible US permanent presence in Poland is regarded by many Poles in the same light as Us forces in Korea, a visible guarantee against their traditional predators to the east and west. The southern and northern predators no longer exist.

 

Hey, we still squabble. Just you wait when we unleash our 30 tanks to renew Czech Kingdom stretching from sea (Königsberg) to sea (Trieste)

[Ken Estes]

Ken, you will pardon me saying so but this rather muddies the water. This is no different than the setup on any US Airbase in the UK. They are not getting anything different than they would by reopening or aquiring a similar facility in the UK. It least we have a proven propensity of allowing use as a FOB. In the case of Poland thats unproven, even before you consider the overflight issue.

 

If its a means of satisfying defence agreements with Poland in lieu of cancellation of BMD, so be it. But its a shame such projects are not considered for the UK.

True, and even less, it offers no real positional advantage, which the UK basing rights have long provided. The US-Polish collaboration has already been conducted for some time in the SE of Poland, near Deba, and US ground training there has proven useful for POL units deploying to A'stan [iraq for a brief period in 03-04]. An aerial equivalent was thus in the making, I would assume.

 

I would almost imagine that this is a carryover of actions from the Bush regime and the notion of advancing NATO basing eastward IOT humiliate the Rus, which no longer features as part of US policy; and we should be glad of that. Remember Rumsfeld and his bizarre notion of embracing ROM and BUL vice 'old Europe'??? Exactly what will a POL base do for US-NATO that cannot be satisfied from Ramstein, GE?

 

As usual, given the disconnect of US policies with reality since 2000, you should not assume that this effort has anything at all to do with the original NATO policy of the US and the long-term commitment to our allies of forces, reinforcements and their alignment with certain operating bases.

[EchoFiveMike]

Poland provides a much more capitalistic, individual rights focused society than many of our historical allies in the region. We should seek better relations with them on that basis alone. They also do not have the same issues with Islamic infestation as western Europe.

 

Much like NATO, we need to realize our interests with nations change and perhaps diverge and act accordingly. It pays to have options. S/F....Ken M

[Cookie Monster]

Perhaps US wants to avoid a replay of the precursory events leading up to WWII. After all WWII broke out when Germany and Russia invaded Poland. Perhaps staging a US base in Poland may deter a future WWIII.

[rmgill]

I gather thant even Guantanomo bay uses Cuban cleaners.

 

I actually gathered that this is NOT the case. I seem to understand that there is no substantive communication between the base and the cuban people short of looking at each other via optics and sensors and the occasional rude gesture.

 

Looking around at the web, it seems that the cuban government 'discourages' locals from working there and prohibits vehicular traffic into the base. In 2006, there were 2 remaining cuban employees. No new recruiting of local labor is allowed. The base gets no water or supplies from the cuban side. Water was cut off years ago. Power is self generated. Water is produced from a desalination plant.

[m4a1]

From what I read, this will only be very small base with a few dozens of servicemen at most, which will support the mainteance of F-16s and C-130s.

[ShotMagnet]

Sorry about RAF Fairford, Stu.

 

I rather liked the place, myself.

 

 

 

Shot

[rmgill]

The documentary I saw predates this, so I dont doubt you are correct. I got the impression employees had been working on the base as far aback as the 1960s, is that correct?

 

Suffice to say its usually quite common for US personnel to be suplimented by 'indigenous personnel' on US Airbases. My father was one of them.

 

It helps when the local government isn't screaming that the imperialist are stealing their water after cutting off the water supply, among other problems and instigations. There's probably not a lot of land mines laid around US Air Force installations in the UK too.

[Anixtu]

I gather thant even Guantanomo bay uses Cuban cleaners.

 

Jamaicans.

 

Many of the civilian personnel working at GTMO currently are recruited from Jamaica. I think there are some Filipinos too. There used to be a lot of Cubans employed there. I don't remember OTTOMH exactly why most of them had to stop, it might have been that new recruits weren't allowed but existing employees were allowed to continue until the last one retired. The last few Cuban employees at GTMO were largely a token measure and were required to attend but not do any actual physical labour, other than the important one of distributing pensions to retired GTMO local employees on the Cuban side of the fence.

 

I'll check the details and get back to you.

[Gunguy]

The Poles are VERY pro-US. We have been keen to do a tie up with them for the last few years. With the missile program hitting the skids, this is a great second option. With the smaller number of jets in each countries Air Forces, we will have excess bases that are in 'like new' condition.

[X-Files]

Thanks, I would be interested. Id be curious to find out if there would have been any there in 1962, or if this was something that kicked off under detente.

 

As good a backgrounder on your question as any -

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y98/feb98/10e4.htm

Edited June 15, 2011 by X-Files

[Jeff]

But its a shame such projects are not considered for the UK.

Welcome to the new "special relationship".

[Anixtu]

That is indeed very interesting, thank you. I had a feeling they had them working on the base quite a long time. From the documentary I saw, most of them looked like they were getting on a bit....

 

From a ring-bound reprint of a 1982 book that I have about Guantanamo, purchased in the gift-shop there, but which lacks a proper cover or title:

 

Cubans on the Base

 

Much of the work on the base has historically been accomplished by civilian labor.

 

Until 1961, recruitment of non-U.S. citizen labor was done in Cuba, with the majority of workers commuting to and from the base to neighbouring towns on a daily basis. However, in January 1961 the Cuban government prohibited any further recruitment from Cuba. In September there were 2,404 Cuban commuters working on the base. There were also 560 Cuban residents on the base in 1963.

 

...

 

In December 1976 there were 145 Cuban commuters still traveling across the fenceline. On the base there were 370 Cuban residents.

 

As of September 1982 only 95 Cuban commuters remained. All of these commuters are reaching retirement age, and the time is approaching when there will no longer be Cuban commuters.

 

It then goes on to explain about the recruitment of Jamaicans.